Posted on 05/21/2016 8:38:01 AM PDT by Salvation
Q. Many of our Protestant brethren say that, before Jesus comes, there will be a rapture wherein all the faithful will be taken up, I guess, to meet Him in the sky. When I tell them that the Bible says we will “see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven” (Mt 24:30) and “he will send his angels ... and they will gather his elect from the four winds” (Mt 24:31), and then ask them who will be left to “gather” if everyone has previously been “raptured,” they say it will be the Jews. What is the Church’s teaching on this? Will there even be such a thing as the rapture? I’m confused! Any light you can shed on the subject will be greatly appreciated!
Rich Willette, Springfield, Vt.
A. The notion of rapture (a Latin word that means to be snatched away) is a very novel concept among certain (not all) evangelicals. It is a notion less than 150 years old and finds no real support in the biblical text as you point out. Fundamentally, the theory asserts that before the final tribulations of the last times, faithful Christians will be snatched away. Rapture theorists disagree about the exact moment of the snatching. Some say it will be pre-tribulation, others midway through the tribulations, and some even say post-tribulation.
The root text for evangelicals who hold rapture theory is a text from the First Letter to the Thessalonians: “Indeed. we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore, console one another with these words” (4:15-18).
The context is the second coming of Christ. There are not two second comings taught in Scripture, but rapture theory posits two — the one described in First Thessalonians and another one, some 1,000 years later. Note, too, that in First Thessalonians there is no mention of some people being left behind. There is no mention of a 1,000-year reign. Nor does St. Paul indicate that what he is describing here is a different coming of Christ, distinct from other texts in the Gospel wherein Christ describes His own second coming.
Thus we are left with a text that simply does not support what rapture theorists say. They further strive to unnaturally stitch this account with other texts in the Book of Revelation. The result is a highly debatable account of the last days that even rapture theorists hotly debate in terms of the details. The whole enterprise amounts to an attempt to shoehorn biblical passages into rapture theory that more clearly call it into question. To say the “elect” are merely the Jews is speculative at best and fanciful and contrived at worst.
As for Catholic teaching on these matters, the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes it as follows: “Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers [see Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12]. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the ‘mystery of iniquity’ in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh. [see 2 Thes 2:4-12; 1 Thes 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; 1 Jn 2:18-22]” (No. 675).
Actually it seems the origins have at least its seeds in writings by Catholics. From a priest:
Its origins are in the counter reformation move of Papal Rome in the 16th century after Martin Luther nailed his 95 thesis to the church door in Wittenberg on October 31, 1517. It is less well known that Pope Leo X authorized three Jesuit Priests to reinterpret Daniel’s 70 weeks of prophecy; the Book of Revelation; and Ezekiel. The goal of these jesuits was to take the heat of the reformation away from the papacy and the protestant association of the Anti-Christ with the pope. The three Jesuits were:
The doctrine – called futurism – which would later become ‘the rapture’ originated and was submitted by Francisco Ribera in 1585. His Apocalyptic Commentary was on the grand points of Babylon and the Anti-Christ which are now known as the rapture doctrine. Ribera’s published work was called “In Sacram Beati Ionnis Apostoli & Evangelistate Apocoalypsin Commentari” (Lugduni 1593). You can still find these writings in the Bodleian Library in Oxford England. The work was considered flawed and faulty, and was ordered buried in the Church archives, out of sight, by the pope himself.
Unfortunately, over 200 years later a librarian to the Archbishop of Canterbury by the name of S. R. Maitland (1792-1866) was appointed to be the Keeper of the Manuscripts at Lambeth Palace, in London, England. In his duties, Dr. Maitland came across Francisco Ribera’s rapture theology and he had it republished for the sake of interest in early 1826 with follow ups in 1829 and 1830.
This was spurred along with the Oxford Tracts that were published in 1833 to try and deprotestantize the Church of England. John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) (A Leader of the Plymouth Brethren) became a follower of S.R. Maitland’s prophetic endeavors and was persuaded. Darby’s influence in the seminaries of Europe combined with 7 tours of the United States changed the eschatological view of the ministers which had the trickle down effect into the churches.
Another contributor to the rapture ideology came through Emmanuel Lacunza (1731-1801), a Jesuit priest from Chile. Lacunza wrote the “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty” around 1791. It was later published in London in 1827. The book was attributed to a fictitious author name Rabbi Juan Josafat BenEzra. - http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/46653.htm
Sadly, they have, disrespecting the word of God by compelling it to support Rome, like an abused servant.
Pro and Con on this. I can cite just as many verses that “Rapturists” used to defend their position as there are verses that don’t support it. Problem is that the Church is so focused on this Rapture they forget the important things the Church should be doing.
shouting does not make it so. John 14 says nothing about returning anywhere!
John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
“We celebrate the first resurrection every year on Easter.”
Nonsense, Revelation firmly places the first resurrection at the second coming, after the tribulation.
Elsie,
Within approximately a half hour of 18:40 UTC, Thursday, October 5, 2017. That is the equivalent of 1:40 p.m. Central Time in the U.S. It will be very late in the day in Israel.
The website documents all of the details.
Perhaps. But this group of people -- this church -- that liturgically celebrated the "Dormition of Mary" from no later than the 7th century is the same church in continuity from that which 1) correctly canonized the 27-book NT and 2) correctly fought the early heresies (e.g., it correctly defined and taught the bodily Incarnation of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity, the 2-natures of Christ, etc.). So when that same church universally accepts that Mary did not suffer bodily corruption, then we have a good track record by that church on other matters -- together with the promise of the Holy Spirit "to lead into all truth" -- that supports that teaching.
Bible doesn’t say something didn’t happen, doesn’t give anyone the right to make stuff up
But here it's not just anyone who is making the claim: it's the Church that Jesus Christ founded, which was established by the Apostles. In the period from the 2nd to 8th Century (and beyond) that Church self-identified as the "Catholic Church" with patriarchies established at Rome, Antioch, Constantinople, Alexandria, and Jerusalem. There is NO OTHER church visible in this period which was proclaiming the Gospel to the entire world that can lay claim to being the Church founded by Jesus Christ. Zero. None.
So when THAT church teaches about Mary it's not "just anybody" making the claim.
At that point, then Mormonism has lots of stuff that they claim happened that Scripture doesn’t outright contradict. Are we obligated to take that as fact to just because they claim it?
The LDS can't claim historical continuity back to the Apostolic Age. (Their "church" has about the same historical support as the Pre-Trib Rapture -- mid-19th Century, but not earlier. Both are soundly rejected.) There is thus no reason to take what they claim as true. LDS really, really expect what they profess to be true, just as Pre-Tribbers really, really expect that doctrine to be true. But just because you or the LDS subjectively believe they have a grasp on Scripture and Truth, doesn't mean they do.
Are you convinced that the body of believers known now as the Ekklesia will be on earth while the testing happens here and the Jews are evangelizing the human population as the Temple is rebuilt and the sacrifices of blood offerings again made in that Temple?
Being raised with barely a whiff of Christianity and the occasional nod to appearances on holidays, I graduated childhood without much organized religious indoctrination.
Now older, according to the calendar, my need and curiosity have me working through other people's theories and arguments along with my own, same as everyone else, but without the "US vs Them" need to prove the way that I was taught is "The Correct Truth".
Fact is, I'm ignorant about much, but hopefully my ego will let me learn without its getting in the way, as seems to often be the case with the indoctrinated.
While their interpretations differ, I've read that what some Protestants think of as "The Rapture", some Catholics might think of as "The Warning" and some Orthodox might think of the "Purification Day".”
I've been reading True Life In God for a while now and, for what it's worth, the message of September 15, 1991 is called: The Purification.
For our further reflection, this quote from Blessed Pius IX:
"There will come a great sign that will fill the world with awe. But this will occur only after the triumph of a revolution during which the Church will undergo ordeals which are beyond description."In my seeking, I'm trying to be a good, data taking researcher and this much I know: Something BIG is planned for the world.
What that BIG something is is a matter of great speculation leading to some creative redefining, but I'll bet at least one third of our time's modern church are wrong about "The Rapture".
Won't "they" be surprised!
I'm sure the author is aware that those Patristic references to the Rapture place it within the events of the Second Coming.
Not only are there many references in early church writings, but the pre-trib notion is also found early on in church History,
Oh, really? What early church references and writings mention a pre-trib rapture?
Historical claims require historical proof. I suspect you're going to be shown wanting on this point.
Paul and Jesus were the first to reveal the mystery of the Rapture to end the Age of the Ekklesia. The Church/Ekklesia will not be in the testing period known as the seventieth week of Daniel, the Time of Jacob's Trouble, The Tribulation, the hour of testing. John later wrote what he was shown regarding these events. So there are three to start with.
And, btw, why would you want to start an exchange with a closed mind, such as 'I suspect you're going to be shown wanting on this point.' If you need to win something your ego desires, I will bow out now and leave you to your 'victory'.
I'll check back in late this evening or tomorrow morning, when I get back in town. Have a wonderful day ...
It's not a closed mind, but rather an educated mind. I've been down this path before, many times. So I know of which I speak. I also recall you from a few of the "Birther" threads. This is a topic that touches on end-times prophecy. I'm just giving a little prophecy of my own as to how your proof will go. :)
I will bow out now and leave you to your 'victory'.
Very well. That is a very nicely-folded tent.
Indeed, including
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. (Acts 14:22)
Belief in the Rapture or disbelief in the Rapture does not affect my salvation in Yashua. I do not care one way or other if people go around starry eyed believing they’re suddenly going to be shot up in the sky ... to me the whole thing is a scam by Satan to get your mind off Yashua and ignore what you are as a Christian and your purpose on Earth which is to glorify Him and witness for Him.
The oft preached expectation of escape from real tribulation can also lead to many souls becoming disillusioned when it comes, which is what i read happened in China when the Boxer rebellion came, as Christians had been told such would not occur before the Lord returned.
Not asking anyone to change their views, but here is something to consider.
http://www.rapturesolution.com/beechick/Intro/7reasons.htm
Catholics have explained to you patiently and repeatedly the difference between veneration (honor) and worship (adoration) and yet you prove yourself un-teachable.
It reminds me of a conversation I had years ago with a Muslim soccer coach in my son's youth league. The game had been delayed an hour because of threatened thunder storm, and we were just chatting. Somehow the topic of religion came up (I might have said something like, "I think the weather's clearing, thank you Jesus") and he remarked something like, "Oh, you polytheists."
I spent some time explaining how the Trinity isn't three 'gods' but One True God, of one essence, one in Being, three divine Persons, etc. --- and how even his Koran classed Christians with Jews, Abrahamic monotheists, "People of the Book"--- as any Christian will tell him, we believe in One God. We had what I'd hoped was an amiable, and full and free discussion.
When they finally made the announcement that the game could begin in 10 minutes, he ambled back to his team, but not before he remarked, unsmilingly, "Always the same --- full of deceitful bull**** words ---you polytheists!"
I guess there are people who can't learn, and people who won't.
Catholics have explained to you patiently and repeatedly the difference between veneration (honor) and worship (adoration) and yet you prove yourself un-teachable.
And we have explained patiently and repeatedly how the catholic actions towards Mary are in violation of the prohibition against making and worshiping idols.
Where as we can point to specific Scripture that forbids these activities the catholic cannot point to a specific Scripture that allows the worship of a created being or thing.
We have specific examples in the NT of the apostles/disciples telling others who've bowed before them to get up and not worship them.
The catholic, per catholic writings, is told to place all of their faith and trust in Mary in contrast to the Word which tells us to place all of our trust and faith in Christ and Christ alone. Catholics are also told to rely upon her to answer prayers that Jesus will not or is slow to answer whereas the Word teaches us to pray only to the Father and that He will supply all of our needs.
The catholic in the various apparitions an image claiming to be Mary yet who teaches a different message than that found in the Word. The promises of the apparition at Fatima are illustrative of this.
These apparitions have told the catholic to wear a scapular and if they do they would "be preserved from the eternal flames."
The list can go on and on but it is clear the catholic reliance and worship of Mary is not supported by the Word.
And what’s happening to Christians under ISIS rule - do they believe they’re going through the Tribulation?
In one sentence you have clearly and unambiguously described 100% of the anti-Catholics and the majority of non-Catholics that we encounter.
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