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To: metmom
"The other blanket assumption is that everyone else or anything else that is not Catholic is wrong." Orthodoxy does not teach that at all. We KNOW that the path to theosis is found within The Church. We DO NOT know that it isn't also found elsewhere. We believe that from the beginning God has planted the "sporoi tou Theou", the seeds of God, throughout Creation. It stands to reason that there may well be other ways. These matters are up to God. "It's also that without the Catholic church what would men do?" I expect what they do to this day all around the world. Here's a better question, "What would Protestants in the West do today if The Church, in the person of a bunch of Greek speaking Eastern Catholic bishops, with a few Latins thrown in, hadn't decided what was in the Canon of the NT? I mean, what would you have been reading? What "Bible" would you have had to thump. How do you suppose they knew to reject the Shepherd of Hermas and let in Mark or Peter? The fact is they measured the scriptures which were voluminous, against "what The Church always and everywhere believed". As a practical matter, metmom, that meant measuring scripture against the Divine Liturgies, devotions, canons and the writings of The Fathers. So, while I have no doubt you folks would be here, you wouldn't be believing what you do. "A lot of erroneous assumptions about the character and integrity of God." God is O ΩΝ, the Being Which created "beingness". Is The Church wrong?
232 posted on 04/16/2016 1:32:18 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen and you, O death, are annihilated!)
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To: metmom
Sorry, I know; formatting is my friend!

"The other blanket assumption is that everyone else or anything else that is not Catholic is wrong."

Orthodoxy does not teach that at all. We KNOW that the path to theosis is found within The Church. We DO NOT know that it isn't also found elsewhere. We believe that from the beginning God has planted the "sporoi tou Theou", the seeds of God, throughout Creation. It stands to reason that there may well be other ways. These matters are up to God.

"It's also that without the Catholic church what would men do?"

I expect what they do to this day all around the world. Here's a better question, "What would Protestants in the West do today if The Church, in the person of a bunch of Greek speaking Eastern Catholic bishops, with a few Latins thrown in, hadn't decided what was in the Canon of the NT? I mean, what would you have been reading? What "Bible" would you have had to thump. How do you suppose they knew to reject the Shepherd of Hermas and let in Mark or Peter? The fact is they measured the scriptures which were voluminous, against "what The Church always and everywhere believed". As a practical matter, metmom, that meant measuring scripture against the Divine Liturgies, devotions, canons and the writings of The Fathers. So, while I have no doubt you folks would be here, you wouldn't be believing what you do.

"A lot of erroneous assumptions about the character and integrity of God." God is O ΩΝ, the Being Which created "beingness". Is The Church wrong?

233 posted on 04/16/2016 1:35:25 PM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen and you, O death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
Why did John write in two of his books things were written down so we could know if we had salvation?

Are You suggesting there are other ways to salvation other than Christ?

You need to read up on the criteria for a book to be included in the canon.

234 posted on 04/16/2016 1:35:56 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: Kolokotronis; metmom
We DO NOT know that it isn't also found elsewhere. We believe that from the beginning God has planted the "sporoi tou Theou", the seeds of God, throughout Creation.

As far as I can discover, there are no "sporoi tou Theou" in the New Testment. There is only one seed, "Sporos tou Thou"--One Seed of The God; in Person His Only Begotten Son, and figuratively the Word of The God, written (graphe) and/or spoken (hrema):

εστιν δε αυτη η παραβολη ο σπορος εστιν ο λογος του θεου (TR)

"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God" (Lk 8:11 AV).

It stands to reason that there may well be other ways.

Not only to your fallible reasonings from the Orthodoxen, but of a truth from the infallible, inerrant, plenary and verbally inspired, and preserved Word of The God (Mt. 4:4, Lk. 4:4). The men and women of God are born of the Flawless Seed (herespora, singular; in other places sporos, singular) of God:

αναγεγεννημενοι ουκ εκ σπορας φθαρτης αλλα αφθαρτου δια λογου ζωντος θεου και
μενοντος εις τον αιωνα (TR)

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which
liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Pet. 1:23 AV).

But these regenerated disciple-priest-servant-ambassador-friends of Jesus (The Lord and Spirit-Anointed Son of The God) are not the only sowers, and their seed is not the only seed being cast along with the Good Seed:

προσελθοντες δε οι δουλοι του οικοδεσποτου ειπον αυτω κυριε ουχι καλον σπερμα
εσπειρας εν τω σω αγρω ποθεν ουν εχει τα ζιζανια (TR)

"So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?" (Mt. 13:27 AV).

It is the Enemy, sending his sowers of tares, that have continually, persistently, and perniciously been sowing tares, false doctrine (to me, "pseudologos"), since the time of Adam and Eve:

εγερθησονται γαρ ψευδοχριστοι και ψευδοπροφηται και δωσουσιν σημεια και τερατα
προς το αποπλαναν ει δυνατον και τους εκλεκτους (TR)

"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to
seduce, if it were possible, even the elect" (Mk. 13:22 AV; cf Mt. 7:15, 24:11; Lk. 6:26; 1 Jn. 4:1).

The figurative fruit of the tares come into maturity, is not hard for the husbandman to discern, for the tare-seed is evil, black and spiritually discerned, fit to be separated and burned at harvest.

But what does the evil seed look like when it is growing? These evil sowers come into both the local field as well as the local Temple of the Holy Spirit, and start scattering, broadcasting the news of another Christ of the same kind, another gospel of a different kind, and recommend the guidance of another spirit of a different kind than the true believers originally received, The Faith once delivered to the original Saint-Disciple-Apostles (2 Cor. 11:3-4).

Surely the visible churches, the various companies of professors of Christ, are not clean of tare-scatteres, any more than were the Twelve chosen by Jesus as a warning as to whom you will trust. There is only one standard we can trust, and it is the Word of Christ:

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord" (Col. 3:16 AV).

It is the Word of Christ that unifies, not the words of men unless the words are inspired and inscripturated:

"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas;
and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"
(1 Cor. 1:12-13 AV).

As a practical matter, metmom, that meant measuring scripture against the Divine Liturgies, devotions, canons and the writings of The Fathers. So, while I have no doubt you folks would be here, you wouldn't be believing what you do.

Your view creates distortions and divisions, not heals them as Paul's did. The church you describe is already lost in sin and apostasy.

My lad, you're on a slippery slope here, and rapidly descending. Apparently you will not grasp the only steady thing in your universe, the Holy Word of God, Sola Scriptura to Life.

Sorry to see you go, but . . . don't say you were not warned, over and over, with true "in spite of" love.

=====

καθως γεγραπται εσκορπισεν εδωκεν τοις πενησιν η δικαιοσυνη αυτου μενει εις τον αιωνα
ο δε επιχορηγων σπερμα τω σπειροντι και αρτον εις βρωσιν χορηγησαι και πληθυναι
τον σπορον υμων και αυξησαι τα γεννηματα της δικαιοσυνης υμων (TR)

(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness
remaineth for ever.
Now he that ministereth seed* to the sower~ both minister bread for your food, and multiply
your seed** sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;) (2 Cor. 9:-10 AV) .

* = σπερμα = sperma (accusative, singular)
~ = σπειροντι = sower (dative, singular)
** = σπορον = sporon (accusative, singular)

>> The fruit of true disciples is more disciples (Jn. 15:8,16). <<

=========

(Go to it, MM!)

297 posted on 04/16/2016 7:36:06 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Fiat Lux)
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