Posted on 04/15/2016 7:25:23 AM PDT by verga
I don't blame you!
Rome has enough of it's own to worry about.
Read the book (do you use Rome's?)
It'll move you from NOT knowing to knowing it is!
"I've reserved 7000 that have not bowed the knee to Baal."
I was aware of your people's LANGUAGE being used to write it down; but your PEOPLE actually doing it is a new thing to me.
Rome sets them and you jump through those.
No; that's the kayak fella.
I guess folks can 'define' what ever they want; but it STILL does NOT make the practice Scriptural.
explains why they can bow down to the idols of catholic mary.
Wonder if Aaron went through the same mindset as they were melting down the gold for the calf?
I remember that.
That is one of the things that I noticed when I first got saved and started reading the Bible, that the two versions of the Ten Commandments didn’t match up.
When Catholics wonder about what it was that I found different between what the Church taught and what Scripture taught that prompted my decision to leave the Catholic church for good, this is one of the things.
I thought it was very deceitful for them to take something out of the Bible and change it and teach us that instead.
Hmm, a man is mired in a pagan religion, comes out of that pagan religion but is mentally ascenting but not born from above, so he falls back into the pagan religion. And you think that's a good example? LOL
Those Italics were pesky heretics until the bold Times New Romans exposed them.
The problem for reformed movements is that they are always looking for a new reconstructionist movement, anything to replace the historical one holy catholic apostolic church that is visible in this world from the First Century unto this day, founded according the word of our Lord Jesus the Christ upon Peter and the other Jewish Apostles and Prophets, with the Messiah himself being the chief cornerstone. All of this has been preserved and delivered to each generation.
You always cite these guys. Here's the way to know if they, or any other preacher/messanger, etc, is right.
You can tell by their fruits if their message is in accord with the Word.
I don't think you'll find anyone on this thread that believes these people you mentioned are in accord with the Word.
But that's a difference with Christianity and Catholicism. Christianity has one source, the Bible, against which to measure truth.
Catholicism has so much stuff that is written (some of which is not even known by catholics), some of it is contradictory in message, and a good part of it, as we have discussed on this thread, is against the Word.
Each person arrogates to himself and herself, like metmom and other do here, and to lift isolated scriptural passages for conducting a driveby superficial analysis that contradicts the towering intellectual tradition of the Church including a string of eminent Episcopalian (Cardinal Newman) and Protestant, (yes actual scholars, historians, and theologians) who upon examining the beliefs of the Catholic Church, in good conscience, abandoned their prior false convictions, and converted to Catholicism.
How is verga's vanity post different from what you criticize? He's offered his opinion with no documentation to his sources. I know as I've asked him for them.
Plus, we've been told on these threads that some catholic beliefs are on a take it or leave it basis. For example, if Frances says something crazy we are free to take it or leave it. Same with the apparitions catholicism places so much emphasis on.
Catholicism has no standard against to measure truth.
Mary’s gonna be mad for being left out of this list!
LOL ... the mary of the catholiciism religion is the Queen of heaven nd mediator of all graces. She of that religion can take it.
So just where in the Greek do you see any created being receiving the manner of adulation given to the Mary of Catholicism, or even one word of praise to Mary in the life of the Nt church (Acts-Rev.)?
We are told,
As the the Son of God supernaturally, spiritually makes believing souls into children of God, Mary is said to be the mother of Christians in "supernatural and spiritual generation."
as Christ was sinless, so Mary was;
as the Lord remained a virgin, so Mary;
as Christ was called the Son of God, indicating ontological oneness, so Mary is called the Mother of God (which naturally infers the same, and is not the language of Scripture, which even clarifies Israel birthed Christ "according to the flesh, God blessed for ever": Rm. 9:4,5);
as the emphasis is upon Christ as the Creator through whom God (the Father) made all things, including Mary, so it is emphasized that uniquely “to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood,” shed for the salvation of mankind, (the logic behind which can lead back to Eve);
as Catholics (adding error to error) believe Christ gave His "real" flesh and blood to be eaten, so it is emphasized that Mary gave Him this, being fashioned out of Mary's pure blood and even being “kneaded with the admixture of her virginal milk,” so that she can say, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5);
as Scripture declares that Christ suffered for our sins, so Mary is said to have done so also;
as Christ saves us from the condemnation and death resulting from the fault of Adam, so it is taught that man was condemned through the fault of Eve, the root of death, but that we are saved through the merits of Mary; who was the source of life for everyone.
as the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;
as Christ is given all power in heaven and in earth, so Mary is “surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven.”
as Christ is the King of the saints and over all kings, (Rv. 15:3; 17:14; 19:16) so Mary is made Queen of Heaven and the greatest saint, and that “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise;”
as the Father made Christ Lord over all things, so Mary is enthroned (all other believers have to wait for their crowns) and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things;
as Christ is the express image of God, and highly exalted above all under the Father, having the primary position among all creation, so Mary is declared to be the greatest saint of all, and the first of all creatures, and as having a certain affinity with the Father, with a pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father;
as Christ ever liveth to make intercession for the saints, so is Mary said to do so;
as all things come from the Father through the Son, so Mary is made to be the dispenser of all grace;
as Christ is given all power on Heaven and on earth, Mary is said to have (showing some restraint) “almost unlimited power;”
as no man comes to the Father but through the Son, so it is taught that no one can come to the Son except through Mary in Heaven;
and as the Lord called souls to come to Him to be given life and salvation, so (in misappropriation of the words of Scripture) it is said of Mary, “He that shall find me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord;” “that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”
And as Christ is given many titles of honor, so Mary also is, except that she is honored by Catholics with more titles than they give to the Lord Himself!
We must never adore her; that is for God alone. But otherwise we cannot honor her to excess, because it is not possible to overestimate the privileges God gave her in making her His own Mother. “What the church teaches,” by Monsignor J.D. Conway/ Imprimatur of Ralph L. Hayes,, New York; Harper and Brothers; 1962 (He also states, “It seems manifest that Christians simply adapted the art of pagan Rome to their religious needs:” p. 218)
Pope Pius XII asserts in an address on the Queenship of Mary, “after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe....In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognise that they are all brothers. Receive, O most sweet mother, our humble supplication above all obtained for us, that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are all beautiful, O Mary, you are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honour of our people.’ Catholic Culture, Prayer of Pope Pius XII, Composed for the Marian Year, 1954
“The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help...How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as ‘our Lady, our Mediatrix,’ — (St. Tharasius, Orat. in Praesentatione) ‘the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.’ (On Off. Graec., 8 Dec.).” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm
When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.... — St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246. http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM
Mary can be declared by the Church to be not only the “helpmate” of that Second Divine Person — Co-Redemptrix in Salvation, Mediatrix in grace — but actually “like unto Him.”...when she acts, it is also He who acts; and that if her intervention be not accepted, neither is His.... Her position as "the first of all creatures, the most acceptable child of God, the nearest and dearest to him," (Cardinal Newman); As Mother of God, says Lepicier, Mary contracts a certain affinity with the Father; · The pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father, which has fitted her to pour out into the world the everlasting light which issues from that loving Father.... He has no children but by her, and communicates no graces but by her...and through her alone does He dispense His favours and His gifts. A Marian Synthesis; http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/msynthesis.htm
Mary is the sealed fountain and the faithful spouse of the Holy Spirit where only he may enter...She is the sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity...the holy City of God, the greatness of the power which she wields over one who is God cannot be conceived...her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands...because it is always humble and conformed to his will, the dispenser of all he possesses...What immeasurable greatness...Mary has authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven...God gave her the power and the mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride....all the angels in heaven unceasingly call out to her...They greet her countless times each day with the angelic greeting, "Hail, Mary", while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests...The whole world is filled with her glory,... Moreover, we should repeat after the Holy Spirit, "All the glory of the king's daughter is within".... Whatever desires the patriarchs may have cherished, whatever entreaties the prophets and saints of the Old Law may have had for 4,000 years to obtain that treasure, it was Mary alone who merited it and found grace before God by the power of her prayers and the perfection of her virtues." — St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, miscl. http://www.legionofmarytidewater.com/docs/true.doc
Oh? I was pressed for time and am just getting back to this now, but my only engaging and refuting two of your arguments as proof in your prolix polemic were not even needed, for the very fact that you must engage in such laborious attempts come up with some support from Scripture is an argument against it, for as the Holy Spirit characteristically states such exceptions to the norm even among minor character, how much more does a dogma require such, rather than your specious leaping reaching argumentative attempts. Just admit that the veracity of this dogma rests upon the premise of the unScriptural ensured veracity of Rome.
You assert such non-sense as, "I have shown above that Mary had no intention of entering into a conjugal relationship with Joseph and this is is due to her having entered into a “relationship” with the Holy Spirit." "The question will still remain to some: How does this prevent Mary and Joseph from engaging in a conjugal relationship? By law he was strictly prohibited from entering this type of relationship with Mary." "Jeremiah 3:1 “If a man divorces his wife and she leaves him and then becomes the wife of another, Can she return to the first? Would not this land be wholly defiled? But you have played the prostitute with many lovers, and yet you would return to me!—oracle of the LORD.”
But Christians are already married to Christ, and beget spiritual children for Him, and are members of His flesh and of His bones, but which certainly does not prevent them from having earthly spouses! In addition, while you quote Jer. 3:1, you ignore the rest of it in which God clearly showed that He is not bound by such Laws regulating earthly relationship which you vainly presume to place Him under, for although He clearly stated that He divorced Israel, (Jer. 3:8) and she become another man's, yet He clearly called Israel to return to Him. (Jer. 3:14) What men will do to God in order to support Catholicism!
You go one to come up with this:
Had he divorced her Mary would have been subject to at least ridicule and scorn and possibly stoning, which was the punishment for adultery.
That is absurd! If anyone would be stoned it would be Mary, since if Joseph disowned the child then it would be Mary who broke the contract, while even without a marriage contract, then unless Mary could claim rape, then at worse Joseph would be forced to marry her and never put her away.
Then we have this anaillogical gem of presumption: "If Jesus is the temple then Mary must be the eastern gate since she is how He entered the world." However, this not only speaks of a future literal temple, which is not the same as that under Moses, and its details go far beyond what can be merely typographical, yet regardless, if the Lord Jesus is the temple and Mary is the Eastern Gate then one one can get into the temple even thru Mary.
However, what Scripture says is that believers have "boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus," (Hebrews 10:19) not Mary, as Christ is the only Heavenly intercessor the Holy Spirit speaks of and sends believers to!
Some of what you argue regarding “brothers” and “sisters" has some merit (and i am not opposed to Mary being a perpetual virgin, but to specious arguments for any doctrine), but as regards your assertion that "it was absolutely unheard of in the middle eastern culture that a younger sibling would upbraid and older brother for any reason,"the argument is not John 7:5 has the younger kin upbraiding the Lord, for it says that they simply exhorted the Lord to "go into Judæa, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.
But in the end, the only conclusion that can be drawn, based entirely on the Scriptures, is at the least, the belief that Mary did remain a virgin for her entire life lacks the warrant needed for dogma.
As far as I can discover, there are no "sporoi tou Theou" in the New Testment. There is only one seed, "Sporos tou Thou"--One Seed of The God; in Person His Only Begotten Son, and figuratively the Word of The God, written (graphe) and/or spoken (hrema):
εστιν δε αυτη η παραβολη ο σπορος εστιν ο λογος του θεου (TR)
"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God" (Lk 8:11 AV).
It stands to reason that there may well be other ways.
Not only to your fallible reasonings from the Orthodoxen, but of a truth from the infallible, inerrant, plenary and verbally inspired, and preserved Word of The God (Mt. 4:4, Lk. 4:4). The men and women of God are born of the Flawless Seed (herespora, singular; in other places sporos, singular) of God:
αναγεγεννημενοι ουκ εκ σπορας φθαρτης αλλα αφθαρτου δια λογου ζωντος θεου και
μενοντος εις τον αιωνα (TR)
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which
liveth and abideth for ever" (1 Pet. 1:23 AV).
But these regenerated disciple-priest-servant-ambassador-friends of Jesus (The Lord and Spirit-Anointed Son of The God) are not the only sowers, and their seed is not the only seed being cast along with the Good Seed:
προσελθοντες δε οι δουλοι του οικοδεσποτου ειπον αυτω κυριε ουχι καλον σπερμα
εσπειρας εν τω σω αγρω ποθεν ουν εχει τα ζιζανια (TR)
"So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?" (Mt. 13:27 AV).
It is the Enemy, sending his sowers of tares, that have continually, persistently, and perniciously been sowing tares, false doctrine (to me, "pseudologos"), since the time of Adam and Eve:
εγερθησονται γαρ ψευδοχριστοι και ψευδοπροφηται και δωσουσιν σημεια και τερατα
προς το αποπλαναν ει δυνατον και τους εκλεκτους (TR)
"For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to
seduce, if it were possible, even the elect" (Mk. 13:22 AV; cf Mt. 7:15, 24:11; Lk. 6:26; 1 Jn. 4:1).
The figurative fruit of the tares come into maturity, is not hard for the husbandman to discern, for the tare-seed is evil, black and spiritually discerned, fit to be separated and burned at harvest.
But what does the evil seed look like when it is growing? These evil sowers come into both the local field as well as the local Temple of the Holy Spirit, and start scattering, broadcasting the news of another Christ of the same kind, another gospel of a different kind, and recommend the guidance of another spirit of a different kind than the true believers originally received, The Faith once delivered to the original Saint-Disciple-Apostles (2 Cor. 11:3-4).
Surely the visible churches, the various companies of professors of Christ, are not clean of tare-scatteres, any more than were the Twelve chosen by Jesus as a warning as to whom you will trust. There is only one standard we can trust, and it is the Word of Christ:
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord" (Col. 3:16 AV).
It is the Word of Christ that unifies, not the words of men unless the words are inspired and inscripturated:
"Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas;
and I of Christ.
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"
(1 Cor. 1:12-13 AV).
As a practical matter, metmom, that meant measuring scripture against the Divine Liturgies, devotions, canons and the writings of The Fathers. So, while I have no doubt you folks would be here, you wouldn't be believing what you do.
Your view creates distortions and divisions, not heals them as Paul's did. The church you describe is already lost in sin and apostasy.
My lad, you're on a slippery slope here, and rapidly descending. Apparently you will not grasp the only steady thing in your universe, the Holy Word of God, Sola Scriptura to Life.
Sorry to see you go, but . . . don't say you were not warned, over and over, with true "in spite of" love.
=====
καθως γεγραπται εσκορπισεν εδωκεν τοις πενησιν η δικαιοσυνη αυτου μενει εις τον αιωνα
ο δε επιχορηγων σπερμα τω σπειροντι και αρτον εις βρωσιν χορηγησαι και πληθυναι
τον σπορον υμων και αυξησαι τα γεννηματα της δικαιοσυνης υμων (TR)
(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness
remaineth for ever.
Now he that ministereth seed* to the sower~ both minister bread for your food, and multiply
your seed** sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;) (2 Cor. 9:-10 AV) .
* = σπερμα = sperma (accusative, singular)
~ = σπειροντι = sower (dative, singular)
** = σπορον = sporon (accusative, singular)
>> The fruit of true disciples is more disciples (Jn. 15:8,16). <<
=========
(Go to it, MM!)
|
Proskyneō/Proskuneō — a masculine noun meaning to prostrate, almost always in worship. It occurs 60 times, mainly for worship of God, but sometimes for false gods, including images and demonic incarnations, which is idolatry. (Acts 7:43; Rv 9:20; 13:4, 8, 12, 15; 14:9; 16:2) It is used twice for obeisance before men, once in forbidding a pious man to do so, before Peter no less, (Act 10:25) and another in compelling false brethren to show obeisance before the feet of true brethren. (Rv. 3:9) Furthermore it is used once in reproving John for trying to worship an angel of Christ, telling him to worship (proskyneō) God instead. (Rv. 22:8,9) Thus this act of prostration normatively denotes worship, only once being clearly used for less than that, and worship is always the case when proskyneō is used as a volitional activity, or in the context of supernatural beings. Nowhere is the act of believers bowing down to believers sanctioned, much less bowing down before a statue of them in prayer, praise and adulation, and ascribing to them attributes which are only ascribed to God. And which is blasphemous, and outside of worship of God this manner of prostration and ascription is only seen in pagan worship, which is idolatry. Proskunētēs — a masculine noun, which occurs just once (John 4:23) and describes those who worship God. Therefore latreia is not the only word that uniquely means worship, contrary to what many Catholics argue. Sebō/Sebomai — A verb which occurs 10 times, denoting worship of God as well as false gods, and to describe devout persons. Sebazomai. A verb occurring once (Rm. 1:25) in describing those who worshiped and served false gods. Latreuō — service of worship. It occurs 21 times, mostly as "serve" in describing the activity of worship of God, and twice for service to false gods. (Acts 7:42; Rm. 1:25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped [sebazomai (G4573)] and served [latreuō (G1391)] the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. It is never used for service to man, and is what we see Catholics giving to the Mary of Catholicism, to whom they ascribe Divine attributes and functions, and dedicate themselves to her. Latreia — From latreuō; service of worship. Occurs 5 times as denoting service toward God, not any created being, yet it is corespondent to the dedicatory service of Catholics to their Mary. Eusebeō — to be pious, reverent as in the only place it occurs in describing worship of unknown God. .(Acts 17:23) Conclusion: From this brief study we can see that any assurance the Catholics are not engaging in worship in their "hyperdulia" of Mary, crossing the invisible line into latreia, is plainly specious. For just as souls were quite obviously engaging in worship described as proskyneō or latreuō or sebazomai, even if latreia was not used to describe them, so also can Catholics. While sometimes the words for worship can be used in regards to obeisance toward men, yet as with the words for praise, they are never used in regards to created beings being bowed or prostrated to (much less before representative statues) beings in adulation and praise and prayed to as unseen beings having supernatural abilities in the heavenly realm, including the ability to hear corporate, even mental prayer in Heaven from those on earth, and engaging in making sacrificial offerings to them. And in Scripture constitutes worship, with such activity and ascriptions being unseen toward anyone but God, and otherwise it belongs in the pagan world. And thus by engaging in such towards Mary, it is evidenced that many Catholics are materially engaging in worship, or at the least blasphemy (if a difference can be made), even if unawares. In response some Catholics argue that one cannot engage in worship if that is not intended in the persons heart. However, this is not the case, for one can easily be unaware of what constitutes worship, including of money, and in any case one can deny they are engaging in such, even taking the mark of the Beast but denying it represents worship of him. Moreover, idolaters are described as being such, not based upon their hearts, but their dedicatory actions and ascriptions. See link for verses and more, by God's grace. But no doubt being able to speak Greek means that engaging in the manner of "veneration" only given to God or by pagans to false gods, and ascribing attributes that are only ascribed to God or by pagans to false gods, does not constitute worship when Catholics do so toward created beings. |
Orige, Alexander--more heretristics
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