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1 posted on 11/02/2015 6:56:55 AM PST by Salvation
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To: Salvation; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; kinsman redeemer; BlueDragon; metmom; boatbums; ...
What is the promise that points to Purgatory? Simply stated, Jesus made the promise in Matthew 5:48: You, therefore, must be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. In this promise is an astonishing declaration of our dignity. We are to share in the very nature and perfection of God. This is our dignity: we are called to reflect and possess the very glory and perfection of God.

Which simply confirms that Rome teaches salvation by merit, for salvation in her system begins with becoming good enough to be with God, via the act of sprinkling, due to being forgiven and with not sins which need atonement, and with infused holiness, versus imputed on Christ;'s account.

But since few are in that pristine state when they die then they must yet again become good enough to be with God thru purgatory, commencing at death.

Thus rather than salvation by grace meaning that God justifies the unGodly by faith which is counted for righteousness on Christ's account, by a faith which effects holiness, under Rome it means that by the grace of God one actually becomes good enough to be with God, even sharing in the very nature and perfection of God.

Thus it is salvation under the law but with more grace.

Purgatory itself means "to make clean, to purify" (Lat., "purgare"), and one of the two purposes of purgatory, besides its fantasy of atoning for sin, is that one must be purified of character defects and its attachment to sin, to be with God, since no unclean thing will enter glory.

The CE explains that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc.

And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness". - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Thus Kreeft states,

"...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

As do lay RCs who say such things as say,

"ones who will go directly to heaven are the ones who have already shed every last trace of self-love left in their hearts...Their hearts are left with nothing but pure love for Christ." -http://stillcatholic.com/CATHPurg.htm

The CE also explains that under Roman soteriology, although" the Redeemer has merited for sinners the grace of justification (causa meritoria), neverthelesshe is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis).” Catholic Encyclopedia>Sanctifying Grace


But if God justifieth the un Godly by faith which is counted for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) then it cannot be the level of personal holiness that justifies one, unless you make the sanctifying effects of regeneration the cause of justification. Which means Abraham become born again when God counted his faith for righteousnesses in Gn. 15:6, and that it was. counted for righteousnesses because at that point (or in Gn. 22 if you want to make James 2 as referring to obtaining justification) he actually become good enough to be with God. Likewise the contrite criminal in Lk. 23 somehow became good enough to be with God.

Which is RC theology, via the complete cleansing and remission of the temporal punishment the act of baptism is held to effect. Leaving the souls having to maintain or attain to that pristinated state to be with God, and requiring the bureaucracy to invent a place to place those who were not bad enough for Hell nor good enough to be with God in the meantime.

Of course, on one hand RCs say souls are fit to be with God simply due to being forgiven with no sins needing temporal punishment, thus the newly baptized can directly go to be with God, yet on the other hand they want to argue that one must be purged of character defects, of self-love to have no nothing but pure love for Christ, to be perfect, yet the baptized have not attained to this level of development, but still have an irreformable corrupt nature they must learn to die to (presuming they even are born again).

Instead, if God justifieth the un Godly by faith which is counted for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) on account of Christ upon whom God laid "the iniquity of us all," bearing our sins in His own body, and "was numbered with the transgressors," (Is. 53:6,12; 1Pt. 2:24) then he can both be presently accepted in the Beloved (and only in Him, on His account) and seated with Him in heaven, (Eph. 1:6; 2:6) and forever be with the Lord at death or at His return,

Which is what Scripture always teaches wherever it manifestly speaks of the the next conscious existence after this one. (2Co. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-13; Acts 7:59; Lk. 23:39; 1Ths. 4:17)

Yet since impenitently living in sin is contrary to justifying faith, but living Godly is, then Scripture assigns damnation to those who do the former, and salvation to those who practice the latter, with repentance when convicted of the contrary.

This is what reconciles the texts which teach justification by faith and those which promise salvation in the light of works, but Caths confuse the effects of justifying faith with being the cause, or basis.

RCs invoke James 2 who states that "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2:24), but if he is speaking of justification in same sense as Moses (Gn. 15:6) and Paul then he is contradicting them both. Instead, while Paul's protest is against salvation on the basis of merit of law-keeping, and preaches Abrahamic faith as salvific, James is protesting against an inert faith that does not work to fulfill the righteousness of the law by the Spirit, (cf. Rm. 8:4) and rightly teaches that only that kind of faith is salvific.

(Yet as seen in such places as Acts 10, God sees such justifying God-given faith before one does any work, with God "purifying their hearts by faith," (Acts 15:7-9) and leaving Rome to have to allow such justification, but only as an exemption clause.)

For as expressed, the faith that saves is a faith which follows the Lord in whom it looks to for salvation, and thus it drops the charges against the penitent in one's heart, though allowing for dealing with offenses of the reproved impenitent, (Matthew 18:15-17; Lk. 17:3,4) though not even pursuing that is the higher standard. (Lk. 23:34; Acts 7:60; 1Co. 6:7)

And which effects of faith justify one as being a believer, and fit to be rewarded under grace (Mt. 25:30-40; Rv. 3:4) to those who actually earned damnation, (Rm. 6:23) versus truly meriting them eternal life, as if they were actually good enough to be with God, as per the false postmortem purgation gospel of Rome.


And due to RC emphasis on merit, , we hear professions similar to yours such as this:

I feel when my numbers up I will appoach a large table and St.Peter will be there with an enormous scale of justice by his side. We will see our life in a movie...the things that we did for the benefit of others will be for the plus side of the scale..the other stuff,,not so good will..well, be on the negative side..and so its a very interesting job Pete has. I wonder if he pushes a button for the elevator down for the losers...and what .sideways for those heading for purgatory..the half way house....lets wait and see.... — http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=4098202&postcount=2

264 posted on 11/05/2015 8:44:56 PM PST by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: Salvation
Simply stated, Jesus made the promise in Matthew 5:48: You, therefore, must be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.... we are called to reflect and possess the very glory and perfection of God....having the perfection of our heavenly Father...actually be perfect as the Father is perfect!

Which is wresting Scripture. The Lord spoke this as regards the Lord's graciousness to sinners, and is an exhortation to be as God is, NOT a requirement to practically "possess the very glory and perfection of God.

If this was the requirement to be with God then it would mean that not only have newly baptized souls which (Rome thinks are fit for Heaven) attained to perfection of character, which they go on to manifest they do not, but it would mean that somehow the contrite criminal of Lk. 23 attained to perfection of character in a few hours on the cross.

Yet what Scripture teaches is that growth toward perfection is a long process requiring manifold temptations, and not simply suffering. (1 Peter 1:6-7; 1Jn.2:14; 5:4,5; Rv. 2.7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21) Thus the Divine Lord Himself in the mystery of Hius incarnation had to experience being tempted in every basic way we are. And being made perfect [in experience and overcoming] , he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; (Hebrews 5:9)

But Jesus made me a promise: You must be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect.

No, that would be a requirement, and which the Lord did not make. Instead His taught by His Spirit that those who believe on Him to save them by His sinless blood, since they cannot save themselves, are counted righteous, (Em. 4:1-7ff) and accepted in Him, and due to Him, and made to sit with Him in Heaven. (Eph. 1:6; 2:6)

And wherever the NT manifestly speaks of the the next conscious existence after this one, then it is with the Lord. (2Co. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-13; Acts 7:59; Lk. 23:39; 1Ths. 4:17)

In the last verse we see that every true Christian would be with the Lord if He returned, as they expected He soon would, but instead Rome has believers going to a place of fiery torments!

The only suffering for believers is that of the judgment seat of Christ due to the loss of rewards and the Lord's disapproval at the judgment seat of Christ , which one is saved despite of, and which does not occur until the Lord's return! (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

Catholic theology has always taken seriously God’s promise that we would actually be perfect as the Father is perfect

Which is blasphemous, as neither the newly converted, or martyrs or others whom God sends directly to glory, are as good as Christ. Instead, the converted are washed, sanctified, and justified by faith, while the next transformative event Scripture speaks of after this life is the resurrection.

The apostle Paul confessed that he was not perfect, yet expressed that to depart from this life would be to be present with the Lord, and that what he longed for as regards any constitutional change was the resurrection. And it is then and only then that believers shall be like Christ.

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (2 Corinthians 5:2-3)

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6-8)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

And therefore believers are exhorted to be practically what they are positionally, and to be as much like Christ now as they can be, since this is God's will.

270 posted on 11/05/2015 9:29:06 PM PST by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: Salvation; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; BlueDragon; boatbums; caww; CynicalBear; daniel1212; ...
The problem with the concept of purgatory is that it is basically reforming the old person, not giving them a new nature as we are promised.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Romans 6:1-11 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

When a person is born again, they receive a NEW nature, a Godly, Spirit given nature, becoming NEW creatures IN CHRIST.

When we die, the old sin nature is finally gone and all that is left is the new, sinless nature, which IS righteous enough to stand before a holy God.

On what basis? Because it's the righteousness of Christ Himself which has been imputed to us, credited to our account.

There's no need for purgatory because there's nothing left to purge from our souls because that part died in Christ when the person was born again.

We are regenerate NOW. We are saved NOW.

283 posted on 11/06/2015 3:51:47 AM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Salvation
The blood of Jesus makes us pure - that is why he died, to make us as pure as snow. When we accept Jesus as our Savior, washed in his blood, we are perfect in heaven.

I am a Catholic and I do not believe in purgatory. That is a man made extra category that does not exit. I don't care what an earthly person said she saw.

“Matthew 5:48: You, therefore, must be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” Again, Jesus makes us perfect because he died for us - all we have to do is believe in Him and his blood covers us, making us perfect in the eyes of God. It is a total stretch to use that verse to concoct some place where we are not yet with God after we die.

The Catholic church in years gone by, would pray someone out of purgatory for a fee. Maybe it was a good business practice but it was evil for that to happen. Mortal men make mistakes, and that was one of them.

447 posted on 11/08/2015 10:04:10 PM PST by Marcella (CRUZ (Prepping can save your life today.))
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