Posted on 11/02/2015 6:56:55 AM PST by Salvation
Amen! So very true! (nice to see you! ;)
Whom do you suspect puts such specious notions into your mind? I have not called you a white-washed sepulcher. But Jesus said that of the religious leaders of His day. They were gross hypocrites.
Can’t wait to see the response.
Would it do any good to address the errors? ... Sadly, I doubt it.
Jesus goes to great lengths to tell us that God is our Father.
How could mere mortals then be better parents that God?
Or, rather, if that’s an example of bad parenting, then why do Catholics tell us that God treats us like that?
When a person is born again, or born from above if they prefer that terminology, are they or are they not BORN into the family of God?
If they are, why would we expect God to treat us contrary to everything He tells us about Himself in Scripture?
Consider the Prodigal Son. What was the father’s response in that account?
Then I would hazard a guess that when Jesus called the Pharisees *white washed tombs* the HE was being a religious bully as well.
Tell us. Do you consider calling someone a *heretic* as being *religious bullying* as well?
Affirmative sir.
==============================
1. They couldn't be.
2. I've ONLY heard and learned that God loves us because we are His children, His beloved children. He gives us what we need to be with Him in heaven for eternity.
3. I learned that Baptism was our induction (so to speak) into God's family here on earth. Did you learn something different?
4. God has treated me with unbelievable goodness and I am marvelously because I was made in His image, my eternal soul. Did you learn something different?
5. Joy. The Gospels tell us of the JOY when a sinner repents.
.
Always a pleasure to chat with you, mm.
No, but that is not what 1 Cor 3:6-15 describes. There is an "increase" given by God in Whose grace men participate as builders; being men that may put there inferiorities that are burnt upon entry to Heaven. These are not sins for which they are paying -- they cannot do that.
“With one sacrifice, then, he has made perfect forever those who are purified from sin...And then he says, ‘I will not remember their sins and evil deeds any longer.’ So when these have been forgiven, an offering to take away sins is no longer needed.â€
Correct. More or less, your "translation" is still a vague paraphrase: the real book says "sanctified". Those exiting Purgatory are sanctified indeed, by one oblation of the Cross, and their sins and iniquities are no more.
Then why does the believer *lose* his salvation when he sins?
God doesn’t send His children to hell. That’s what they’re saved from.
If they’re going to hell, they’re not saved and they’re not God’s children.
If you’re God’s child, you are saved and you are NOT going to hell.
A person is born again when they are born of the Spirit by receiving Jesus and believing on His name. (John 1:12) To those people God gives the RIGHT to be called children of God.
“No, but that is not what 1 Cor 3:6-15 describes.”
Glad we finally agree. 1 Cor 3 does NOT describe Purgatory per CCC1030.
“there inferiorities that are burnt upon entry to Heaven”
Fictional. 1 Cor 3 describes a BUILDING being tested by fire to SHOW what work was done to last and what was done by human strength. It has nothing to do with any inferiority in a person being burnt up. Not interpretation - just what Paul wrote.
” Those exiting Purgatory are sanctified indeed, by one oblation of the Cross, and their sins and iniquities are no more.”
No, because there is no such thing as Christian who has been “imperfectly purified” - Jesus doesn’t make mistakes. Neither does the Father. And the Holy Spirit has testified that what they have done has been done perfectly -
” By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.” - Heb 10
“we have been sanctified...once for all...having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time...He has perfected for all time”
What God has perfected for all time is NOT “imperfectly” done!
But it also says that:
Read carefully. The scene is ... wait for it ... IN HEAVEN! Are you of a mind that purgatory is in Heaven? God forbid such error!
I guess we have to choose which Catholic to believe. I’ve heard there’s fire, no fire, happens before entering Heaven, happens over a long time or just a few minutes; that it is only venal sins, not sins but impurities. It’s all over the map.
“The building allegorizes the man on the day he is judged”
No, it does not. The “building” is the church, which the “builder” has been working on. What Paul says is “If anyone builds on this foundation [Jesus Christ] using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.”
The quality of the work the man did in building the church “will be shown for what it is” - not literally burned, since it is just a word picture. It will be revealed, or ‘made manifest’ - exposed.
“of what sort it is (hopoion estin), qualitative relative pronoun”
It is not “judged” or condemned, and certainly is not an “imperfectly purified” soul being made better.
All is in the context of workers, laboring under God, on the church - and the illustration shows why Paul says “He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor...Let each one take care how he builds upon it.”
“It” is the church, not the individual’s soul.
Very clear, except to those who do not want it to be clear.
Not only that, but if it's the person being burned, then how could he be suffering *loss* if it's his sins that are being burned up, taken from him?
That makes NO sense at all. On the contrary, getting your sins burned, if that was what was really happening, would result in gain.
God doesn’t send His children to hell. That’s what they’re saved from.
God's children CHOOSE hell. We DO have free will. We choose God or Satan. You remember your catechism.
If they’re going to hell, they’re not saved and they’re not God’s children. If you’re God’s child, you are saved and you are NOT going to hell.
Yes, we get to CHOOSE whether we want to be with Him or not. That's always been the gift of free will.
A person is born again when they are born of the Spirit by receiving Jesus and believing on His name. (John 1:12) To those people God gives the RIGHT to be called children of God.
Yes, indeed.
“What Paul says ... is that each individual is the temple of the Holy Spirit”
No, he says that later in a different context. The context for the verses about fire are very plain and simple:
“There is no difference between the one who plants and the one who waters; God will reward each one according to the work each has done. 9 For we are partners working together for God, and you are God’s field.
You are also God’s building. 10 Using the gift that God gave me, I did the work of an expert builder and laid the foundation, and someone else is building on it. But each of you must be careful how you build. 11 For God has already placed Jesus Christ as the one and only foundation, and no other foundation can be laid. 12 Some will use gold or silver or precious stones in building on the foundation; others will use wood or grass or straw. 13 And the quality of each person’s work will be seen when the Day of Christ exposes it. For on that Day fire will reveal everyone’s work; the fire will test it and show its real quality....”
There is nothing there about an individual, It is not Paul talking about Paul. “For we are partners working together for God, and you are God’s field. You are also God’s building.”
We - the ones doing the work.
You - the ones being worked on.
We is not the same as you. Heck, even Catholics ought to admit that Purgatory is a doctrine that does NOT rest on 1 Cor 3! But then, Catholics ought to also admit the obvious - the entire New Testament contradicts the idea of Purgatory. There is no way to reconcile the New Testament with Pope Paul VI:
“It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God’s sanctity and justice. These must be expiated either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death,[3] or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or “purifying” punishments...
...That punishment or the vestiges of sin may remain to be expiated or cleansed and that they in fact frequently do even after the remission of guilt[8] is clearly demonstrated by the doctrine on purgatory. In purgatory, in fact, the souls of those “who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but before satisfying with worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and for omissions”[9] are cleansed after death with purgatorial punishments. This is also clearly evidenced in the liturgical prayers with which the Christian community admitted to Holy Communion has addressed God since most ancient times: “that we, who are justly subjected to afflictions because of our sins, may be mercifully set free from them for the glory of thy name.”[10]
For all men who walk this earth daily commit at least venial sins;[11] thus all need the mercy of God to be set free from the penal consequences of sin...
...Good works, particularly those which human frailty finds difficult, were also offered to God for the salvation of sinners from the Church’s most ancient times...”
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6INDULG.HTM
One cannot reconcile two conflicting ideas. We are saved by grace through faith, and our sins are forgotten by God. OR we are only partially saved, and imperfectly purified, and need “[satisfaction] with worthy fruits of penance for sins committed and for omissions”.
We are saved by God’s gift, or by our works and suffering punishment. One or the other. They cannot be reconciled.
Praise God! “4 But God’s mercy is so abundant, and his love for us is so great, 5 that while we were spiritually dead in our disobedience he brought us to life with Christ. It is by God’s grace that you have been saved. 6 In our union with Christ Jesus he raised us up with him to rule with him in the heavenly world. 7 He did this to demonstrate for all time to come the extraordinary greatness of his grace in the love he showed us in Christ Jesus. 8-9 For it is by God’s grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts, but God’s gift, so that no one can boast about it. 10 God has made us what we are, and in our union with Christ Jesus he has created us for a life of good deeds, which he has already prepared for us to do.”
“For it is by God’s grace that you have been saved through faith. It is not the result of your own efforts, but God’s gift, so that no one can boast about it.”
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