Posted on 09/06/2015 3:58:19 AM PDT by NetAddicted
Reading two recent breathless headlines in the Forward, it would seem that Judaism, at least as practiced in America, is somehow in mortal danger of being co-opted and radically changed by Orthodox Jewry.
(Excerpt) Read more at forward.com ...
Regards, my FRiend.
J.C. is not part of MY religion, which predated YOURS. I have no reason to ponder why he matters, doesn't matter, etc. He is not an element in my beliefs, nor should he be. Neither is allah, buddha, or any of the other deities that have meanings to their devotees. If you like to follow the precepts of J.C. and you don't interfere with the peaceful religious practices of others, fine. If you think you can dictate to me or others what we should believe, I laugh in your face. I would suggest some serious professional counseling, if you actually believe that your religious beliefs are the only game in town and that everyone should drop theirs and follow yours. Then yours is not a religion, it's a cult.
I must respectfully disagree, Ein (though you will probably attribute this disagreement to the fact that I came out of chrstianity).
There is nothing whatsoever wrong with any and every religion believing it is the one true one. Why would anyone belong to a religion that one didn't consider exclusively true? In fact, as I understand it, non-Jews are forbidden to belong to any religion whatsoever other than the Noachide code that HaShem gave to them. This means quite literally that all other religions (except Judaism and Noachism) exist in violation of G-d's prohibitions. There is nothing wrong with this attitude. In fact, ancient Israel was a Torah Theocracy and according to Rambam, Jews are to "compel" all non-Jews to accept the Noachide Laws. The fact that this has not been possible for centuries does not in and of itself abolish the obligation.
The notion of "separation of religion and state" has only existed since the "enlightenment." Prior to that all religions (very much including Judaism) were enforced by the proper religious authorities. This "enlightenment" freedom has both pros and cons: one pro is that Jews (and Noachides) are free to practice their religion without being molested. The con is that religious truth becomes completely relativized and people begin to think that there is no one true religion and no way to discern it. A "one true religion" that has so disappeared cannot be a "one true religion."
Although I am in fact anti-islam, I am one of the few (and perhaps the only) member of this forum who doesn't advocate that moslems adapt their religion to the eighteenth century "enlightenment." Why would they want to imbibe the poison that Jews and chrstians have foolishly done? No, rather than become "civilized moslems" they should simply convert to the Noachide Laws. So should chrstians and all other non-Jews.
I don't mean to come across as a scold, but one of my personal bugaboos is the association of Judaism with the ideology of the "enlightenment." "Freedom of religion" is okay as a temporary situation when there is so much confusion and no competent Halakhic authority to enforce the Truth, but that's all it is.
Vlad doesn't need to stop being narrow-minded. He just needs to change the religion he's being narrow-minded about.
This is the same Messiah Jesus in your analysis, yet here he is personally converting the Pharisee Saul in Acts 9, the same man who became instrumental in the issue of whether Christians are to be bound under the Sinaitic law or not. His epistles testify to that issue on every page.
Paul and his writings, called by the same Messiah Jesus in your analysis, is what is sorely missing in your Judaizing analysis. Paul wrote against the things you mentioned that you think Christians are supposed to be keeping. They must speak Hebrew, the English “Jesus” is forbidden “Yahshua” must be spoken. The essentiality of celebrating Jewish holidays, eating only Kosher food, and such like.
But you're missing the point. On what grounds do you appeal to Paul and J*sus in the first place? The Ultimate Revelation was at Sinai; all latter "revelations" must submit to its judgment. No other religion or "prophet" or whatever has the authority to sit in judgment on the G-d Who spoke to Israel at Sinai or on what He commanded them.
Face facts--you chrstians don't accept the "old testament" on its own authority or the authority of the Revelation at Sinai. You accept it on the authority of a man who lived a thousand years later. But no one at Sinai or in any of the thousand years after it accepted the Torah because J*sus of Nazareth later endorsed it (as a "preparation" and a "shadow"). To believe in the "old testament" on the "authority" of J*sus--shoot, to even regarded as an "old testament"--is ahistorical and alienated from the worldview that accepted it in the beginning.
And as for creating a syncretistic "Jewish chrstianity?" G-d forbid! I just want all non-Jews to become Noachides, that's all. You know, like you chrstians want all people to become chrstians. Just like you . . . only older and authentic.
Notzri means "Nazarene," the original name of the chrstians. If you want to regard it as an insult, that's up to you. (Wasn't the word "chrstian" originally an insult as well?)
`Esav, Jacob's evil twin, became the ancestor of Rome and is identified with chrstianity just as islam is with Yishma`'el.
Prolly assume this is just the coming-and-half.
Prolly assume this is just the coming-and-half.
“Not sure if you are aware of this or not, but he was an Orthodox Jew, had black hair and an olive-skinned complexion, studied Torah, spoke Hebrew and Aramaic, went to synagogue, celebrated the Jewish holidays, and ate kosher food (rules out the pork). If he was here today he would be doing the same thing.”
If Jesus were here now walking the earth, it would be the end of time and he would not be studying Torah, going to synagogue, celebrating Jewish holidays or keeping kosher. He would be judging men and angels.
“In light of those facts would you still try to convert him to a religion that didn’t even exist during his time on Earth?”
He, as the founder of that religion (which most certainly existed since He founded it and made it possible, I would not need to convert Him since He already is Who He is. Again, your question is nonsensical. God does not need to be converted and Jesus Christ IS GOD HIMSELF.
“Why do you want to convert everyone to a religion that Christ didn’t even practice?”
I think you misunderstand the obvious. Jesus knew Who He was - God and Man. He taught the truth about Himself. He performed and ordered performed the sacraments (He ordered His Apostles to baptize; He gave His flesh to be eaten - the Eucharist, for example). Thus, He did practice what He Himself passed on. And yes, I must certainly want to convert every human being to Christianity for it is true.
“Why do you want to convert everyone to a religion that Christ didn’t even practice?”
I think you misunderstand the obvious. Jesus knew Who He was - God and Man. He taught the truth about Himself. He performed and ordered performed the sacraments (He ordered His Apostles to baptize; He gave His flesh to be eaten - the Eucharist, for example). Thus, He did practice what He Himself passed on. And yes, I must certainly want to convert every human being to Christianity for it is true.
“To Vladimir998: You are hopelessly brainwashed to the point you cannot even consider the viewpoints of others.”
That’s completely false. I can easily understand the views of others, but I also possess the right to judge them using common sense and logic. Notice, you not only failed to understand my views but passed ill judgment on me (”hopelessly brainwashed”). Are you the kettle or the pot?
“Who the heck appointed you, puny you, as G-d?”
No one and I don’t claim to be God. See how you were wrong again in understanding me? I don’t have to be God to know the truth of something as God Himself has said. John 8:32
“Who are YOU, clueless you, to dictate what religion a person should follow?”
There you go again misunderstanding me. Where did I EVER SAY I would “dictate” anyone’s religion? NO WHERE. I said I want everyone to become Christian. I said nothing at all and meant nothing at all that could possibly be mistaken by any well meaning person as to “dictate” anyone’s faith.
“And how does your disgusting and plain stupid statement differ from that of your radical Mooselime?”
In this way:
1) I said and meant nothing about force. Muslims use force.
2) I would have everyone become a Christian for the love of God (not just my love for Him, but HIS LOVE FOR EVERY HUMAN BEING). No Muslim can claim to be using rape and murder and force for love of God or God’s love of man.
3) Christianity is true. Islam is not.
“They also only see their point of view.”
Again, you make the mistake of not understanding my point of view for I cannot be lumped together with them for I see other points of view even if I disagree with them. Thus, your statement is hypocritical to say the least.
“It’s perfect, you see, and therefore EVERYONE should share it.”
Again, you make the mistake of not understanding my point of view for I cannot be lumped together with them for I see other points of view even if I disagree with them. Thus, your statement is hypocritical to say the least.
“J.C. is not part of MY religion, which predated YOURS.”
Sorry, but I do not assume modern Judaism is necessarily all that closely related to ancient Judaism. After all if you’re going to claim Jesus is “not part of MY religion” then that in itself separates you from the common Jewish belief of the first century since those Jews - including the Jewish authorities - believed Jesus was a Jew and subject to their authority.
“I have no reason to ponder why he matters, doesn’t matter, etc.”
So much for understanding the views of others, right? How hypocritical is that?
“He is not an element in my beliefs, nor should he be.”
He is greater than you or your beliefs. He IS GOD.
“Neither is allah, buddha, or any of the other deities that have meanings to their devotees. If you like to follow the precepts of J.C. and you don’t interfere with the peaceful religious practices of others, fine. If you think you can dictate to me or others what we should believe, I laugh in your face.”
First of all, your laughter means nothing to me. You could do worse and nothing would change. Matthew 26:67-68 And since I “dictated” nothing you’re back to “misunderstanding” me again. Hypocrisy again.
“I would suggest some serious professional counseling, if you actually believe that your religious beliefs are the only game in town and that everyone should drop theirs and follow yours.”
Amazing. So you’ve called me “brainwashed” and now you say I need “some serious professional counseling”. And you can’t even see the hypocrisy of all that after you said, “you cannot even consider the viewpoints of others”?
“Then yours is not a religion, it’s a cult.”
No. Christianity is true. One way or another, in this life or the next, you’ll come to “understand” that and through no one’s “dictation” except God’s. It might be much like Job 40:7.
“Vlad doesn’t need to stop being narrow-minded. He just needs to change the religion he’s being narrow-minded about.”
Except I am not being narrow-minded at all. The very reaction to what I said tells me where the narrow-mindedness is here.
Thanks for setting the record straight on what Notzri meant, for all I knew it had something to do with Nazi. Some Jews do think of Christians as Nazi’s, you know.
Identifying Christianity with Esau (Esav) is interesting. Judaism likes to reminds us of how their religion predates Christianity, one Jewish poster on this thread has already made that point. Esau was indeed the first born, he was born before Jacob, but it was not him, but the second born, Jacob, who got the birthright.
The apostle Paul makes that point in Rom. 9:7-13, comparing Judaism with Christianity, Judaism he likened to Esau the first born, Christianity he likened to Jacob the second born. Judaism being “children of the flesh” and as such “are not the children of God; but the children of the PROMISE are counted for the seed,” verse 8.
Messiah Jesus is that promised seed, those in Christ children of that promise.
I read Orthodox Jews will be the majority in Israel by 2030.
First time I’ve seen Hashem written HaShem. Makes sense. Just wondering why I’ve never seen it written that way.
This thread was supposed to be about secular liberal Jews sitting in judgment on Jews who actually observe Torah and implying that they are rebellious, alienated from their heritage, or crypto-chrstian (G-d forbid!). Instead you turned this into a another Judaism/chrstianity debate. I hope are really proud of yourself, Vlad. You didn't really accomplish anything by merely asserting the truth of chrstianity for the zillionth time (on its own authority, which is a tautology), but you managed to derail this expose of liberal secular Jews.
I hope every Catholic thread from here on in gets derailed by a Protestant advising all Catholics to "git SAVED!!!" because that is the exact counterpart to what you did here. But of course you'll cry to the mod to have any person who does so banned, you hypocrite.
I am very speedily losing whatever respect I had for you, vlad.
Chassids write G-d, even electronically (read there’s some dispute about whether to do it electronically.
And just why should I give a hang what Paul says about anything, anymore than I do about what Joseph Smith or Mohammed or any other preacher of a false religion said?
Messiah Jesus is that promised seed, those in Christ children of that promise.
I don't know quite what it is, but I have yet to meet a chrstian on this forum who understands that chrstianity's claims about itself prove absolutely nothing. Islam claims to be true; mormonism claims to be true, sikhism claims to be true. A mormon who tells me Joseph Smith is some long foretold prophet or a member of any other religion who just makes the statement that his religion is true doesn't prove anything.
So the "new testament" claims to be true? So what??? What do you do when the person you're talking to doesn't accept the authority of the "new testament?"
Sheesh.
What’s a caucused thread?
Jesus is Christianity.
I read some Jews write out G-d electronically, but it sounds like one shouldn’t, since it can be erased electronically.
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