Posted on 07/26/2015 8:55:19 AM PDT by MHGinTN
Here is yet more information, for those who miss the Rapture and are here after the event. This is for people, not any particular congregation of people. Please, think about it ...
Your response is but an inference, Iscool. Where’s the text in Revelation I asked for (other than the post-trib one in Rev. 19), that mentions a pretribulation marriage of the Lamb? Not another inference please, but a statement in Revelation that actually describes the marriage taking place prior to the tribulation.
There is no such thing, of course. Neither have you given me the passage I asked for that sets forth the two parousias doctrine.
I think at this point, I need to clarify something I said to you about the word “rapture.” Especially so, considering all the hoopla on this thread about it, begun by Yosemitest. I said:
“The pretrib spin on the marriage of the Lamb, is but another in a long list of inferences they believe “proves” a pretrib rapture. But inferences is not what you need (inferences = passages you believe that “infers” a pretrib rapture), what you need is an actual statement somewhere clearly setting forth your doctrine, setting forth an additional parousia separate from the one Jesus taught in Matt. 24:29-31.
Something by Paul like this: ‘Jesus taught only one parousia to his disciples on the mount of Olives, behold, I bring a tremendous new revelation, there are two parousias! one before the tribulation, another one after it. To differentiate the two, we will call the first one the RAPTURE.’ Or something to this effect. [Notice, I have ‘rapture’ in caps here]
If you can produce such a statement, and you DO need one for such a dramatic thing as you propose, an additional parousia from the one Jesus set forth in his olivet discourse, then you will have a case. Until you can come up with such a statement, then all you have are a bunch of inferences. Which, in every instance all you are doing is reading your presupposed additional parousia into the word of God.”
The point I was making, is pretribs consistently use the word “rapture” for the first of their two events, yet Paul uses the Greek word “parousia” (coming) for it in two of his most important passages on this subject, 1 Thess. 4:15 and 2 Thess. 2:1.
Note: Paul did NOT use the word “rapture” to describe the first event. Why didn’t he?
1. Because the “rapture,” or catching up, is only one incident, there is also the “descent” (of Jesus from heaven), the trump being blown, the resurrection/translation of our bodies, the “catching up” (rapture), “meeting in the air,” our “gathering to him.” All different incidents of the same event. The word used is parousia (coming) to describe the event, NOT “rapture,” it being only one aspect of it. Jesus must be central in all of this, not us, the word used, therefore, should reflect this…it does, the “parousia” of Jesus Christ!
2. Because Paul didn’t believe the event was a different event from Jesus.’ If he believed it was a different event, he would have used a special word to differentiate it from the second event…like calling it the “rapture.” We certainly need a special word to describe such a tremendous event as this.
Now, what I would ask of you, Iscool, if the first event is a different event from the second, as you believe, what IS the word – scripturally - it should be called?
If you say “rapture,” then why didn’t Paul call it that? Why did he call it the “parousia,” the SAME WORD Jesus used in Matt. 24:29-31 for the “second” event? the same word Paul uses elsewhere for the alleged “second” event? 2 Thess. 2:1, for instance.
And if you will concede that “parousia” (coming) is scripturally the word we should use, the word Paul used in Thessalonians, then, doesn’t this mean you have two parousias? Two comings? A parousia before the tribulation, another one after it?
If that doesn’t sound right to our ears - and it doesn’t - then what are we going to call this first event – scripturally - to differentiate it from the second? Should we call it a “two-stage second coming?” As the older pretribs used to call it?
Please answer, if you don’t mind, these questions for me. Thanks.
I don’t get why this relates to my comment.
I’m not participating in the discussion in this thread, but I’ve read all of it. While you scoff, I will be praising the Lord for what I see here.
What I see in this thread are people who, despite their traditions, flaws, and human frailties, are trying to make sense of tough passages. What I see here are FReepers following the Biblical model. In Acts 17 the Bereans were called “more noble” than those in Thessalonica because they searched the Scriptures to prove for themselves what they were being taught by the Apostle Paul and Silas.
Since all Bible-believing truly regenerated Christians are part of a chosen generation and a royal priesthood, there is no need to sit back and wait for the priest class to tell us what we are to believe. We aren’t proverbial stepford-wives parroting our favorite saint or pre-Vatican II pope. We don’t just give links to the arguments of our authorities. We wrestle with these things for ourselves. We care too much to blindly accept any doctrine on the word of men. We want to prove them from the Bible.
By the way, it’s laughable to pretend believe papists have ever been in full agreement.
LOL...me too.
But...it does say the dead shall rise BEFORE the living...
MHO...
Not all believers are at the same level of knowledge and spiritual maturity either.
There’s disagreement, sometimes just due to a lack of correct teaching, and working our way through this sort of thing helps everyone grow.
For some it reinforces what they already believe and for others, it can correct errant belief.
But NO ONE is going to find out that they’re wrong about something, if someone isn’t willing to confront them and present their case.
It sure beats swallowing the party line hook, line, and sinker, without engaging the brain or spiritual discernment.
A good read .Thanks for the link.
From MH's commentary..."It (salt) is cleansing, it is relishing, and preserves from putrefaction."
Salt is used to restrain decay in meat.I don't think it's a stretch to say the salt of the earth restrains decay in deep spiritual truths.A lack of which would obviously open the door to strong delusion.
Enjoying your posts,plenty to think about.
God bless
Rather than being a weakness of sola Scriptura, it’s a strength. It can be a self-correcting mechanism instead of falling headlong into the error of a cult, like Jim Jones.
Peter DID do what he was accused of.
Well said as usual metmom!
God bless you both for your thoughts and encouragements!
I think of it this way: when the ones in Christ were born from above, God put the spark of the Holy Spirit in their human spirits making them have alive spirits (like Adam had before the fall) within thier human souls; God brings that living portion back to reunited it with a body, to be joined with the ones still alive who have His Spirit in their huamn spirit on Earth, then all those living and living again in Christ are chnaged, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and snatached away into the clouds to meet The Lord in the air. What Jesus is taking away from thei planet is His True Church seal with His blood. What is left behind are those who are dead without believing in Him and those alive who refuse to allow Him to be God in them.
In your mind, is the Olivet Discourse the same in MArk and Matthew? I believe it is ... So is the Luke 21 Discourse the same as the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Discourse? ... in your mind.
You say that Peter did what he was accused, how do you know?
You say Mathew 18 dose not apply in this case, oh yes it does.
Mathew 18
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
If you read it closely you can see that Jesus is talking about a public matter, the church, if it was a private matter why would the Church be involved.
Paul accused Peter of leaving the gentiles and eating with the Jews, it was nothing more than an accusation, whether true or not I have no idea but I doubt any one who will spread talk about some one.
Thank you for you post and committing the logical fallacy of painting with a broad brush.
If only Jesus had left a teaching authority to determine what was actually correct teaching.... Oh wait He did.
Well...if you’re a Christian you’ll be surprised then when it occurs....until then we’ll agree we don’t agree as to that event.. Therefore it appears you think we’ll be going through the Tribulation period.....which I could not imagine taking the mark of the beast with a knife held at my childrens necks or some of the other tactics which will be used to force this on mankind.
Jesus said.... “I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.”....I believe Him.
....the time of great tribulation before Christ’s second coming is a judgement on unbelievers...”to try them that dwell upon the earth—those who are of earth, earthy (Rev 8:13).
After He first touches down in Basra and proceeds through Petra/Edom up to Jerusalem --
(Isaiah 34:5-8, 63:1-6; Jeremiah 49:13,22; Revelation 14:19-20, 19:11-15)
Christ will descend to the Mount of Olives, just as He previously ascended from it. .....verse 11...” Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into Heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into Heaven, shall ‘so come in like manner’ as ye have seen Him go into Heaven......THEN returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a Sabbath day’s journey.
(Acts 1:11-12). “ Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle. 4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south”.... (Zechariah 14:3-4).
Christ will then pursue His enemies, slaying them, down to Bozrah. Bozrah lies approximately 18 miles southeast of the Dead Sea in the mountain district of Petra, according to the “Davis Dictionary of the Bible”, and it is approximately 58 miles southeast of the Mount of Olives
...”The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. .... And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness” (Isaiah 34:6-7).
Christ will then continue His pursuit and slaying of His enemies from Bozrah to Megiddo— Megiddo being the ancient city close by the final conflict at Armageddon— traveling approximately another 128 miles.....” Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in His apparel, travelling in the greatness of His strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save. Wherefore art Thou red in Thine apparel, and Thy garments like Him that treadeth in the winefat?...... I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with Me: for I will tread them in Mine anger, and trample them in My fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon My garments, and I will stain all My raiment....
.....” For the day of vengeance is in Mine heart, and the year of My redeemed is come. And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore Mine own arm brought Salvation unto Me; and My fury, it upheld Me.
... And I will tread down the people in Mine anger, and make them drunk in My fury, and I will bring down their strength to the Earth” ....(Isaiah 63:1-6)..... Combining the distances from the Mount of Olives to Bozrah of 58 miles with the distance from Bozrah to Megiddo of 128 miles, is a distance of 186 miles, which is approximately the same as 1,600 furlongs (14:20).
The “city” (14:20) undoubtedly refers to Jerusalem, for it and its Godly inhabitants will again make it the “apple of [Jehovah’s] eye” (Lamentations 2:18). “And give Him no rest, till He establish, and till He make Jerusalem a praise in the Earth” (Isaiah 62:7). The “blood of the grapes” (Genesis 49:11) has figuratively described the pressed juice of the grapes, but here it actually describes the blood of formerly living human beings, who have been slain in the judgments surrounding the Second Coming of the LORD Jesus Christ. “I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with Me: for I will tread them in Mine anger, and trample them in My fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon My garments, and I will stain all My raiment” (Isaiah 63:3). The LORD God has never taken pleasure in the death of the wicked. “Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?” (Ezekiel 33:11).
“...but I doubt any one who will spread talk about some one.”
That’s 13-14 letters of the NT you’re calling into question, as well as a God-given apostleship. We all have weird theories, but that one isn’t harmless like so many others. Find a harmless one (or two...or three, lol).
Bless you, FRiend!
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