Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Is the Catholic Church a Force for Good?
http://www.wordonfire.org ^ | May 25, 2015 | Matt Nelson

Posted on 05/25/2015 3:25:43 PM PDT by NKP_Vet

Western civilization is greatly indebted to the Catholic Church. Modern historical studies—such as Dr. Thomas E. Woods' How The Catholic Church Built Western Civilization—have demonstrated with force and clarity that it is the Catholic Church who has been the primary driving force behind the development and progress of the civilized world.

The Church has provided innumerable 'goods' for the benefit of humanity. Nonetheless, modern critics assert that no amount of good could outweigh the evil the Church has allegedly committed in contrast. Talk is cheap, however. We must look at the evidence. Has the Church really been an irreconcilable force for evil in the world?

BIG QUESTIONS

There are three principal issues repeatedly brought to the table by adversaries of the Catholic Church: religious violence, priest scandals, and ill-treatment of women. But do these objections hold water when their integrity is put to the test? And are they enough to render the Church "no good" in our final analysis?

Now let's be clear: throughout the duration of this piece, I am not seeking in any way to deny or defend the sins of any Catholic individual or group. The chief question I propose is not whether there have been malicious members of the Catholic Church (there obviously have been). The question at hand is whether the Catholic Church as a whole ought to be considered a force for evil.

Let's consider briefly the general assertion that religion is the chief cause of violence in the world. This position, in fact, is not supported by the data. Joe Heschmeyer has shown this quite articulately in his recent article at Strange Notions, Is Religion Responsible For The World's Violence?

Evil members of a Church do not necessarily indicate an evil Church. One must be cautious; because this line of reasoning commits an error in logic called the fallacy of composition. We would not say, "the elephant consists of tiny parts, therefore the elephant is tiny"; and thus, we should not say that the Church is sinister because she has sinister members. The parts do not necessarily define the whole; and in the case of the Catholic Church, the parts justify the whole. As G.K Chesterton writes in The Everlasting Man:

“The Church is justified, not because her children do not sin, but because they do. ”

RECLAIMING THE HOMELAND

Sound historical scholarship has shown—contrary to what modern textbooks might falsely suggest—that the Crusades ought not be considered such a black mark in Catholic Church history. Dr. Diane Moczar summarizes the facts in her historical defense, Seven Lies About Catholic History:

"To recapitulate: the Crusades were a response to unprovoked Muslim aggression against Christian states, as well as a response to the enslavement, killing and persecution of countless followers of Christ. They were not examples of European colonialism or imperialism, which lay far in the future, nor were they intended to convert anybody; they were a military answer to a military attack." (p.73)

Moczar demonstrates that the Crusades were largely just (see CCC 2302-2317) and with far-reaching benefits for the people of Europe. She cites historian Louis Bréhier, who also concludes:

"It would be unjust to condemn out of hand these five centuries of heroism which had such fertile results for the history of Europe and which left behind in the consciences of modern peoples a certain ideal of generosity and a taste for sacrifice on behalf of noble causes....." (from The Crusades: The Victory Of Idealism)

Steven Weidenkopf, a lecturer of Church History at the Notre Dame Graduate School of Christendom College, has also clarified the true nature of the Crusades in his footnote-laden treatise, The Glory of the Crusades. Weidenkopf's title is bold, but his analysis is fair and evidence based. In his scholarly assessment of the Crusades he carefully notes:

"To recognize the glory of the Crusades means not to whitewash what was ignoble about them, but to call attention to the import in the life of the Church." (p.14)

Moczar likewise recognizes that not all things regarding the Crusades are to be "glorified." Nonetheless, both Moczar and Weidenkopf decisively demonstrate in their research that, by and large, the Catholic Church's participation in the Crusades ought not be considered evil nor unjust.

HANDLING HERETICS

The real story of the Inquisition is—like the Crusades—not congruent with what one finds in today's error-ridden history textbooks.

Statistics regarding the total number of Inquisition-related deaths have been shamefully embellished by antagonists of the Church, with some asserting numbers in the millions. Though the precise numbers are foggy, recent scholarship has put the number of deaths at just a few thousand over several centuries.

Modern research by historical experts, such as Henry Kamen, Benzion Netanyahu and Edward M. Peters, have demonstrated that the Inquisition was not nearly as harsh or cruel as popularly suggested. Overturning traditional views, they have shown that the Church courts were often both patient and fair in their treatment of heretics. In fact, Church officials were so reasonable in the Inquisition process that heretics in the secular courts (heresy was also a political concern) would blaspheme with hope that they might be transferred to the more merciful Church inquisitors.

This is not to deny, however, that the actions of some Christians were unjust. Moczar concludes:

"Were there cruel inquisitors in some places? Of course. Were methods of interrogation distasteful to modern sensibilities? Sure... [But] given its formidable task of guarding the purity of the Faith in Christian souls, however, the overall record of the Inquisition in dealing with heresy is not only defensible but admirable." (p. 102)

CELIBACY ISN'T THE PROBLEM

This is not a defense of the guilty. It is a defense of the unjustly accused and stigmatized. The data is clear—celibate Catholic priests are no more likely to abuse children than clergy from any another denomination, or even teachers and other secular adult leadership. As Ernie Allen, the president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, has stated:

“We don’t see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this [abuse] or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else." (Pat Wingert, “Mean Men,” Newsweek, April 8, 2010)

Professor of psychology, Dr. Thomas Plante, agrees with Allen:

"Catholic clergy aren’t more likely to abuse children than other clergy or men in general." ("Do the Right Thing", psychologytoday.com, March 24, 2010)

Celibacy is not the problem—and Dr. Chris Kaczor has made this decisively clear. He summarizes the evidence with this statement:

"The evidence is substantial and confirmed by psychologists, researchers, and insurance companies: Priestly celibacy is not a risk factor for the sexual abuse of children." ("Celibacy Isn't The Problem", This Rock, vol. 21, 5)

In his vastly informative book, The Seven Big Myths about the Catholic Church, Dr. Kaczor's research conclusively disarms the celibacy-leads-to-pedophilia myth and puts it to rest once and for all.

Indeed, Catholic clergy should be held to a higher standard—the highest standard in fact—but it is unreasonable to condemn the whole priesthood because of the sins of an ultra-minority. There is simply no good reason to fear Catholic clergy any more than other religious leaders, teachers or the general population. I say without hesitation (and as a dad) that Catholic priests, by and large, are among the most trustworthy citizens of our society today. And the data agrees.

"SHE SHALL BE CALLED WOMAN"

Finally, is the Church's view on women really immoral? Let's begin with the fiery issue of "female ordination": Why aren't women allowed to serve as priests in the Church? Is this not a violation of gender equality?

Properly understood, this is a matter of the Church's incapability to ordain women due to what a Catholic priest is. It is the nature of the priesthood that makes female ordination an impossibility. These key facts may help to underline this point:

I) Jesus called twelve apostles, all of whom were men (Mk 3:14-19; Lk 6:12-16)

II) The twelve apostles ordained men only to succeed them (1 Tim 3:1-13; 2 Tim 1:6; Titus 1:5-9)

III) These men were given a special gift and authority to serve in persona Christi or "in the person of Christ" (see 2 Cor 2:10; John 20:21-23)

IV) Christ was a man; therefore those who serve "in his person" must also be men.

Therefore a female Catholic priest is about as possible as a male mother. The nature of the Catholic priesthood renders female ordination impossible, just as male mothers are an impossibility because of the nature of motherhood. Indeed, male-only ordination is discriminatory; but this is not a matter of preference but of deference to the "nature of things"; for it is the nature of nature to discriminate.

St. John Paul the Great understood this with profound clarity:

"The Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and...this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, 4).

What was Jesus' attitude toward women? Once again, we turn to the words of St. John Paul the Great:

"When it comes to setting women free from every kind of exploitation and domination, the gospel contains an ever relevant message that goes back to the attitude of Jesus Christ himself. Transcending the established norms of his own culture, Jesus treated women with openness, respect, acceptance, and tenderness. In this way he honored the dignity that women have always possessed according to God's plan and in his love." (Letter to Women, 3)

Like her Founder, the Catholic Church reveres 'woman' and attributes to her the highest dignity. The mother of Christ, for example, has been widely revered by Catholics from the earliest centuries of Christianity as the mother of all Christians (Jn 19:26-27). No person in history—except perhaps Christ Himself—has received more love and honour than Mary. The Church has also named four female Doctors of the Church—Sts. Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Siena, Therese of Lisieux and Hildegard of Bingen—and recognized them for their extraordinary influence on the life of the universal Christian Church.

And is it not true that women largely tend to avoid places where they are unfairly discriminated against and patronized? If the Catholic Church really treated women unjustly, would we not expect a female aversion to the Church? Surely. But this is not what we find.

Notre Dame theologian, Catherine Lacugna, states:

85% of those responsible for altar preparation are women. Over 80% of the CCD (religious formation) teachers and sponsors of the catechumenate are women. Over 75% of adult Bible study leaders or participants are women. Over 70% of those who are active in parish renewal and spiritual growth are women, and over 80% of those who join prayer groups are women. Nearly 60% of those involved with youth groups and recreational activities are women. (Catholic Women As Ministers And Theologians, 240)

Women are not afraid of the Church. They are attracted to it. Why? Because she fights for the beauty and dignity of femininity as no other institution on earth does.

Referring to the words of his saintly predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI said these words in praise of women:

"As my venerable and dear Predecessor John Paul II wrote in his Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem: "The Church gives thanks for each and every woman.... The Church gives thanks for all the manifestations of the feminine 'genius' which have appeared in the course of history, in the midst of all peoples and nations." (General Audience, February 14, 2007)

FINAL THOUGHTS

In the final analysis, the Catholic Church is unquestionably a force for good in the world—indeed a force for greatness. She always has been; and because the gates of hell can never prevail against her, she always will be. We have Christ's promise.

Yes, the Church has proven herself to be the lifeline of our civilization—and without her—humanity will fail to thrive. As the great defender of the Church, Hilaire Belloc, concluded in Survivals And New Arrivals:

"If the influence of the Church declines, civilization will decline with it... Our civilization is as much a product of the Catholic Church as the vine is the product of a particular climate. Take the vine to another climate and it will die."

May God continue to bless His Church for goodness' sake.


TOPICS: Apologetics; History; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS:
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 201-211 next last
To: BeadCounter

Ireland still probably has among the stricted abortion laws around, being extremely rare. Compare that to other nations. I am sorry how they voted. I hope they don’t keep changing.


41 posted on 05/25/2015 7:24:37 PM PDT by BeadCounter
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Shadow44; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; ...
The Spanish Inquisition wasn’t even authorized by the Pope, the monarchs’ strong-armed it into existence. Furthermore, it was created to PROTECT people from another Albigensian Crusade.

Your scope is too limited, and your glasses are to rose colored:

Pope Innocent IV, Ad extirpanda, papal bull, promulgated on May 15, 1252, by Pope Innocent IV, which explicitly authorized (and defined the appropriate circumstances for) the use of torture by the Inquisition for eliciting confessions from heretics.


The following parameters were placed on the use of torture:[1]
The requirement that torture only be used once was effectively meaningless in practice as it was interpreted as authorizing torture with each new piece of evidence that was produced and by considering most practices to be a continuation (rather than repetition) of the torture session (non ad modum iterationis sed continuationis).[1]

The bull conceded to the State a portion of the property to be confiscated from convicted heretics.[3] The State in return assumed the burden of carrying out the penalty. The relevant portion of the bull read: "When those adjudged guilty of heresy have been given up to the civil power by the bishop or his representative, or the Inquisition, the podestà or chief magistrate of the city shall take them at once, and shall, within five days at the most, execute the laws made against them."[4]

Innocent’s Bull prescribes that captured heretics, being "murderers of souls as well as robbers of God’s sacraments and of the Christian faith, . . . are to be coerced – as are thieves and bandits – into confessing their errors and accusing others, although one must stop short of danger to life or limb." — Bull Ad Extirpanda (Bullarium Romanorum Pontificum, vol. 3 [Turin: Franco, Fory & Dalmazzo, 1858], Lex 25, p. 556a.) — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_extirpanda

• Pope Innocent IV, Ad extirpanda: (25) Those convicted of heresy by the aforesaid Diocesan Bishop,surrogate or inquisitors, shall be taken in shackles to the head of state or ruler or his special representative, instantly,or at least within five days, and the latter shall apply the regulations promulgated against such persons.{7} (26) The head of state or ruler must force all the heretics whom he has in custody,{8} provided he does so without killing them or breaking their arms or legs, as actual robbers and murderers of souls and thieves of the sacraments of God and Christian faith, to confess their errors and accuse other heretics whom they know, and specify their motives, {9} and those whom they have seduced, and those who have lodged them and defended them,as thieves and robbers of material goods are made to accuse their accomplices and confess the crimes they have committed. (29) The head of state or ruler must cause the names of all men rendered infamous by heresy, or under a statute of outlawry for it, to be written in a consistent form and manner in four books, of which one shall go to the state or local government, another to the Diocesan bishop, the third to the Dominican friars, and the fourth to the Franciscans, and the names of these persons are to be read aloud three times a year in a solemn public ceremony. (30) The head of state or ruler must carefully investigate the sons and grandsons of heretics and those who have lodged them, defended them, and given them aid, and in the future admit them to no public affairs or public office. (31) The head of state or ruler must send one of his aides, chosen by the Diocesan if there is one,with the aforesaid inquisitors obtained from the Apostolic See, as often as they shall wish, into the jurisdiction of the state and the district. This aide,as the aforesaid inquisitors shall have determined, will compel three men or more, reliable witnesses,or, if it seem good to them, the whole neighborhood, to testify to the aforesaid inquisitors if they have detected any heretics, or want to expose their motives,{9} whether the heretics celebrate rites in secret gatherings, or scoff at the common life of the faithful, and their customs; or if the witnesses want to expose those the heretics have seduced, or their defenders, or those who lodge them, or those who give the heretics help. The head of state shall proceed against the accused according to the laws of the Emperor Frederick when he governed Padua. (32) The head of state or ruler must, within ten days after the accusation, complete the following tasks: the destruction of the houses, the imposition of the fines, the consigning and dividing-up of the valuables that have been found or seized, all of which have already been described in this decree. He must obtain all fines in coin within three months, and divide them up in the manner to be set forth hereafter, and convict of crime those who cannot pay, and hold them in prison until they can. However, he shall be subject to investigation for all and each of these things, as it shall be described hereunder, and moreover he must designate one of the assistants, chosen by the Diocesan bishop or his surrogate and the aforesaid inquisitors, to carefully complete all these tasks; another assistant shall be substituted if they so decide. (33) None of these sentences or punishments imposed on account of heresy, shall,either by the motion of any public gathering, the advice of counselors, or any kind of popular outcry,or the innate humanity {10}of those in authority,be in any way waived or pardoned. (34)The head of state or ruler must divide up all the property of the heretics that is seized or discovered by the aforesaid officials, and the fines exacted from these heretics, in the form and manner following: one-third shall go to the government of the state or district. The second as a reward of the industry of the office shall go to the officials who handled this particular case. The third shall be deposited in some secure place to be kept by the aforesaid Diocesan bishop and inquisitors,and spent as they shall think fit to promote the faith and extirpate{11} heretics, this policy prevailing in spite of any statute that has been or shall be enacted against this dividing-up of the heretics' property.


Pope Innocent III, Cum ex Officii Nostri of 1207: In order altogether to remove the patrimony of St. Peter from heretics, we decree as a perpetual law, that whatsoever heretic, especially if he be a Patarene, shall be found therein, shall immediately be taken and delivered to the secular court to be punished according to the law. All his goods also shall be sold, so that he who took him shall receive one part; another shall go the court which convicted him, and the third shall be applied to the building of prisons in the country wherein he was taken. The house, however, in which a heretic has been received shall be altogether destroyed, nor shall anyone presume to rebuild it; but let that which was a den of iniquity become a receptacle of filth. Moreover, their believers and defenders shall be fined one fourth part of their goods, which shall be applied to the service of the public. — Cum ex Officii Nostri Pope Innocent III, 1207, Inquisition, by Edward Peters, p. 49 review Living Tradition, Organ of the Roman Theological Forum

Canons of the Ecumenical Fourth Lateran Council, 1215: We excommunicate and anathematize every heresy that raises against the holy, orthodox and Catholic faith which we have above explained; condemning all heretics under whatever names they may be known, for while they have different faces they are nevertheless bound to each other by their tails, since in all of them vanity is a common element.


Those condemned, being handed over to the secular rulers of their bailiffs, let them be abandoned, to be punished with due justice, clerics being first degraded from their orders. As to the property of the condemned, if they are laymen, let it be confiscated; if clerics, let it be applied to the churches from which they received revenues. But those who are only suspected, due consideration being given to the nature of the suspicion and the character of the person, unless they prove their innocence by a proper defense, let them be anathematized and avoided by all 1-intil they have made suitable satisfaction; but if they have been under excommunication for one year, then let them be condemned as heretics.

Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure, that as they wish to be esteemed and numbered among the faithful, so for the defense of the faith they ought publicly to take an oath that they will strive in good faith and to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church; so that whenever anyone shall have assumed authority, whether spiritual or temporal, let him be bound to confirm this decree by oath.

But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler’s vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith; the right, however, of the chief ruler is to be respected as long as he offers no obstacle in this matter and permits freedom of action.

The same law is to be observed in regard to those who have no chief rulers (that is, are independent). Catholics who have girded themselves with the cross for the extermination of the heretics, shall enjoy the indulgences and privileges granted to those who go in defense of the Holy Land. — http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp

Pope Gregory I. denounced as worthless a confession extorted by incarceration and hunger.369369    Epist. VIII. 30. But at a later period, in dealing with heretics, the Roman church unfortunately gave the sanction of her highest authority to the use of the torture, and thus betrayed her noblest instincts and holiest mission. The fourth Lateran Council (1215) inspired the horrible crusades against the Albigenses and Waldenses, and the establishment of the infamous ecclesiastico-political courts of Inquisition. These courts found the torture the most effective means of punishing and exterminating heresy, and invented new forms of refined cruelty worse than those of the persecutors of heathen Rome.

Pope Innocent IV, in his instruction for the guidance of the Inquisition in Tuscany and Lombardy, ordered the civil magistrates to extort from all heretics by torture a confession of their own guilt and a betrayal of all their accomplices (1252).371371...
This was an ominous precedent, which did more harm to the reputation of the papacy than the extermination of any number of heretics could possibly do it good. Phillip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Volume IV: Mediaeval Christianity. A.D. 590-1073.The Torture http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc4.i.vi.viii.html

Paul Johnson, English Roman Catholic writer: Ever since the eleventh century, secular rulers had been burning those who obstinately refused to fit in with established Christian arrangements; the Church had opposed capital punishment, successive councils decreeing confiscation of property, excommunication, imprisonment or whipping, branding and exile. But in the 1180s, the Church began to panic at the spread of heresy, and thereafter it took the lead from the State, though it maintained the legal fiction that convicted and unrepentant heretics were merely 'deprived of the protection of the Church', which was (as they termed it) 'relaxed', the civil power then being free to burn them without committing mortal sin. Relaxation was accompanied by a formal plea for mercy; in fact this was meaningless, and the individual civil officer (sheriffs and so forth) had no choice but to burn, since otherwise he was denounced as a 'defender of heretics', and plunged into the perils of the system himself.

The codification of legislation against heresy took place over half a century, roughly 1180-1230, when it culminated in the creation of a permanent tribunal, staffed by Dominican friars, who worked from a fixed base in conjunction with the episcopate, and were endowed with generous authority. The permanent system was designed as a reform; in fact it incorporated all the abuses of earlier practice and added new ones. It had a certain vicious logic. Since a heretic was denied burial in consecrated ground, the corpses of those posthumously convicted (a very frequent occurrence) had to be disinterred, dragged through the streets and burnt on the refuse pit. The houses in which they lived had to be knocked down and turned into sewers or rubbish-dumps.

Convictions of thought-crimes being difficult to secure, the Inquisition used procedures banned in other courts, and so contravened town charters, written and customary laws, and virtually every aspect of established jurisprudence. The names of hostile witnesses were withheld, anonymous informers were used, the accusations of personal enemies were allowed, the accused were denied the right of defence, or of defending counsel; and there was no appeal. The object, quite simply, was to produce convictions at any cost; only thus, it was thought, could heresy be quenched. Hence depositors were not named; all a suspect could do was to produce a list of his enemies, and he was allowed to bring forward witnesses to testify that such enemies existed, but for no other purpose. On the other hand, the prosecution could use the evidence of criminals, heretics, children and accomplices, usually forbidden in other courts.

Once an area became infected by heresy, and the system moved in, large numbers of people became entangled in its toils. Children of heretics could not inherit, as the stain was vicarial; grandchildren could not hold ecclesiastical benefices unless they successfully denounced someone. Everyone from the age of fourteen (girls from twelve) were required to take public oaths every two years to remain good Catholics and denounce heretics. Failure to confess or receive communion at least three times a year aroused automatic suspicion; possession of the scriptures in any language, or of breviaries, hour-books and psalters in the vernacular, was forbidden. Torture was not employed regularly until near the end of the thirteenth century (except by secular officials without reference to the Inquisition) but suspects could be held in prison and summoned again and again until they yielded, the object of the operation being to obtain admissions or denunciations. When torture was adopted it was subjected to canonical restraints - if it produced nothing on the first occasion it was forbidden to repeat it. But such regulations were open to glosses; Francis Pegna, the leading Inquisition commentator, wrote:

'But if, having been tortured reasonably (decenter), he will not confess the truth, set other sorts of torments before him, saying that he must pass through all these unless he will confess the truth. If even this fails, a second or third day may be appointed to him, either in terrorem or even in truth, for the continuation (not repetition) of torture; for tortures may not be repeated unless fresh evidence emerges against him; then, indeed, they may, for against continuation there is no prohibition.'

Pegna said that pregnant women might not be tortured, for fear of abortions: 'we must wait until she is delivered of her child'; and children below the age of puberty, and old folk, were to be less severely tortured. The methods used were, on the whole, less horrific than those employed by various secular governments - though it should be added that English common lawyers, for instance, flatly denied that torture was legal, except in case of refusal to plead.

Once a victim was accused, escape from some kind of punishment was virtually impossible: the system would not allow it. But comparatively few were executed: less than ten per cent of those liable. Life-imprisonment was usual for those 'converted' by fear of death; this could be shortened by denunciations. Acts of sympathy or favour for heretics were punished by imprisonment or pilgrimage; there were also fines or floggings, and penance in some form was required of all those who came into contact with the infected, even though unknowingly and innocently. The smallest punishment was to wear yellow cloth crosses - an unpopular penalty since it prevented a man from getting employment; on the other hand, to cease to wear it was treated as a relapse into heresy. A spell in prison was virtually inevitable.

Of course there was a shortage of prison-space, since solitary confinement was the rule. Once the Inquisition moved into an area, the bishop's prison was soon full; then the king's; then old buildings had to be converted, or new ones built. Food was the prisoner's own responsibility, though the bishop was supposed to provide bread and water in the case of poverty. The secular authorities did not like these crowded prisons, being terrified of gaol fever and plague, and thus burned many more people than the Church authorized. The system was saved from utter horror only by the usual medieval frailties: corruption, inertia, and sheer administrative incompetence...

In the Middle Ages, the ruthless and confident exercise of authority could nearly always swing a majority behind it. And the victims of the flames usually died screaming in pain and terror, thus appearing to confirm the justice of the proceedings. — Paul Johnson, History of Christianity, © 1976 Athenium, pgs. 253-255.

http://peacebyjesuscom.blogspot.com/2013/06/roman-catholic-use-of-sword-of-men.html

42 posted on 05/25/2015 7:24:56 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: ealgeone

The Dutch government was historically protestant. Is the King of the Netherlands Catholic? No, he isn’t.

The Catholic Church only became the largest because of the implosion of the Mainline Protestant churches in the 20th Century.

Spare me your indignation.


43 posted on 05/25/2015 7:26:22 PM PDT by Shadow44
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: cherokee1
Other than that whole INQUISITION thing that set western civilization back a thousand year

The inquisition, largely a political but somewhat religious situation was ABSOLUTELY a necessity in history for Christianity to survive...the Christians (Catholics) at that time were defending the faith...along came revolutionaries who destroyed cathedrals, libraries, monasteries, art work, iconology, people....whatever in their sick attempt to alter Christian teaching....the revolutionaries were as intent on destroying Christianity as the Catholics were in defending it....much history of Christianity was destroyed by the revolutionaries.....kind of like the ISIS of their times....if you don't like it, destroy it and since there had never been a need to defend against such madness, the Catholics depended on a violent anti-heretical policy to defend Christianity....very bloody, but Christianity survived....

44 posted on 05/25/2015 7:34:27 PM PDT by terycarl (COMMON SENSE PREVAILS OVERALL)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: aimhigh
Most Christians glorify God. Catholics, they glorify the church. See the problem?

Catholics were glorifying God, praising His name and paying Him homage for 1,600 YEARS before the word protestant was defined........good grief, read the book, Catholics protected it for all those years so you could see what was in it.....

45 posted on 05/25/2015 7:38:08 PM PDT by terycarl (COMMON SENSE PREVAILS OVERALL)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: terycarl

The “word protestant” didn’t have to be defined. God knows who are His and who aren’t. Contrary to popular opinion, they don’t need to be labeled for Him.


46 posted on 05/25/2015 7:40:52 PM PDT by smvoice (I would explain it better, but I only know a few words...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212

I’m going to trust Henry Kamen, since he’s a leading historian on the subject. His book was the first non-polemical history of the inquisition in Spain and his research literally rewrote how the Inquisition is taught. According to Kamen, the Inquisition’s prisons were nicer than the secular ones and people used to confess to heresy to have better cells.

http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/excerpts/9780300180510_Kamen_excerpt.pdf


47 posted on 05/25/2015 7:41:28 PM PDT by Shadow44
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: ealgeone
homosexuality didn't do so a good job in Ireland.

Strictly a political decision...while same sex unions were legal, the partners were denied any "couple"rights at all...probably unfair....the legislature wouldn't grant them any rights so they resorted to this disaster.....Abortion is still illegal in Ireland however.

48 posted on 05/25/2015 7:46:04 PM PDT by terycarl (COMMON SENSE PREVAILS OVERALL)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Shadow44
Let's keep this conversation in context shall we?

You started with the following from post 27 in an attempt to show catholicism in a better light by claiming it has been non-cathlicism that is part of the problem in the Netherlands.

You’re right, the Reformed countries have done so much better. The Netherlands is a paragon of Christian virtue. Modernism is a blight that impacts every church.

To which I replied:

>> You do realize that catholicism is the largest religion in the Netherlands??

It amazes me the uninformed statements catholics make without checking before they post. <<

And then you replied in #36 the following:

The Dutch government was historically protestant. Is the King of the Netherlands Catholic? No, he isn’t.

The Catholic Church only became the largest because of the implosion of the Mainline Protestant churches in the 20th Century.

Spare me your indignation.

You do realize you just made the argument that catholicism is the religion that has been impacting the Netherlands the most in the 20th century....at least since the 1950s/60s which is roughly when their decline began.

2013 statistics indicate 23.7% identify as catholic while 10.2% identify as protestant.

Somehow the majority religion isn't getting the message across.

Spare me your indignation.

However, it is noted that there is a Bible Belt in the Netherlands>

The Bible Belt differs in many aspects (amongst them a regular Sunday church attendance – often twice on a Sunday) from the traditionally Catholic provinces of North Brabant and Limburg to the south (where Sunday church attendance averages between 2% to 3% [1] of the population) and northern parts of the Netherlands, which are traditionally mainline Protestant (dominated by the Protestant Church in the Netherlands[2]) and increasingly secular, with similarly low church attendance figures.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_religion_in_the_Netherlands

I do agree though that the influence of Christianity in Europe is waning to the detriment of that continent and Western society.

Well, I've learned more about religion in the Netherlands that I ever thought I would.

49 posted on 05/25/2015 7:51:05 PM PDT by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

Comment #50 Removed by Moderator

To: metmom
“...do this in memory of me.”

DO THIS....is the key part of that phrase....not why to do it.

51 posted on 05/25/2015 7:53:23 PM PDT by terycarl (COMMON SENSE PREVAILS OVERALL)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: terycarl
>>homosexuality didn't do so a good job in Ireland.<,

Strictly a political decision...while same sex unions were legal, the partners were denied any "couple"rights at all...probably unfair....the legislature wouldn't grant them any rights so they resorted to this disaster.....Abortion is still illegal in Ireland however.

It is still a failure of the church no matter how you cut it. Same as over here in the States.

Sadly, there is strong support for abortion and repealing their 8th Amendment on this issue.

##A September 2014 Sunday Independent/Millward Brown poll found that 56% of voters were in favour of holding a referendum to repeal the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution, with 19% against and 25% undecided. In addition, 60% of voters were in favour of allowing abortion where there is a threat of the woman's suicide, 69% when the pregnancy arose as the result of rape, 72% when there is a risk to the woman's life (other than suicide) and 68% where there is a threat to the woman's long-term health. When it comes to allowing abortion "for other reasons", 34% are in favour, 38% opposed and 20% saying "it depends".[53] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Public_opinion

It sounds like if they chose to vote on this issue abortion would be available in Ireland.

52 posted on 05/25/2015 7:54:52 PM PDT by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: terycarl
“...do this in memory of me.”

Christians do "do this" in memory of Him.

53 posted on 05/25/2015 7:55:46 PM PDT by ealgeone
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: metmom
You mean the Catholic church is finally going to get rid of its homosexual priests? After how many thousand years?

This is a real hangup for you, isn't it??The scandal concerning priests and homosexuality was fairly shortlived, had to do with molestation of young men and was handled poorly by the church....That having been said, the incidence of homosexuality among Catholic clergy is probably no greater nor less that the incidence in any other occupation.....teachers, nurses, business people, attorneys....whatever.

Homosexuality, in and of itself is not sinful....acting on the urges is, and it is so for everyone, not just clergy.

Abortion on the other hand, which seems to be embraced by non=-Catholics is a MAJOR violation....

54 posted on 05/25/2015 8:02:20 PM PDT by terycarl (COMMON SENSE PREVAILS OVERALL)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: smvoice
The “word protestant” didn’t have to be defined

Sure it did, Catholics had to have a name for those who claimed to be Christian but instead of following Christ, followed such as Luther, Zwingley, Henry VIII, Wesley brothers, Storch, Simons, Knox, Brown, Smyth, Michelis Jones, Fox, Amman, Lindley, Otterbein...etc One must have a way to identify all those various "true" DENOMINATIONS, VS:true Catholic Christianity..........see how well it works?

55 posted on 05/25/2015 8:14:40 PM PDT by terycarl (COMMON SENSE PREVAILS OVERALL)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: cherokee1

“Other than that whole INQUISITION thing that set western civilization back a thousand years...”

There’s no evidence that the inquisition set Western Civilization back a single day.


56 posted on 05/25/2015 8:17:37 PM PDT by vladimir998
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: terycarl

They DO have a name. They’re called the Church the Body of Christ.


57 posted on 05/25/2015 8:21:28 PM PDT by smvoice (I would explain it better, but I only know a few words...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: ealgeone
...do this in memory of me.” Christians do "do this" in memory of Him.

You're right, in every true Christian (Catholic) church, they DO THIS....consecrate bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ at every Mass......and no, no one else does it.....no one.

58 posted on 05/25/2015 8:21:46 PM PDT by terycarl (COMMON SENSE PREVAILS OVERALL)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: cherokee1

Uh.. Cesear burned Alexandria. The Catholic church wasn’t around then. For that matter, Jesus wasn’t incarnated yet.


59 posted on 05/25/2015 8:32:11 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: NKP_Vet

The question that needs to be asked, honestly, is “What Catholic Church?” The local one that teaches that Jesus was not God (or at least didn’t know he was)? The one in Lincoln, Nebraska, which is a lot more orthodox and straight shooting? The one in Ireland which is all for sodomites?

To speak of “The Catholic Church” is a misnomer. There are lot of churches with “Catholic” on the front door that are not.

At some point in the near future, many will have to choose what to follow. Just looking at the name on the door will not do it.


60 posted on 05/25/2015 8:34:48 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 201-211 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson