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Why I am No Longer a Dispensationalist
Credo House ^ | May 21, 2015 | C. Michael Patton

Posted on 05/22/2015 4:54:44 PM PDT by OK Sun

My Dispensational Upbringing

I have been taught Dispensationalism from my mother’s womb. I was born in a dispensational environment. It was assumed at my church to be a part of the Gospel. There was never another option presented. It made sense. It helped me put together the Scriptures in a way that cleared up so much confusion. And, to be honest, the emphasis on the coming tribulation, current events that prove the Bible’s prophecy, the fear that the Antichrist may be alive today (who is he?) was all quite exciting. But what might be the biggest attraction for me is the charts! Oh how I love charts. I think in charts. And dispensationalism is a theology of charts!

Making Fun of Dispensationalism

The first time I came across someone who was not a Dispensationalist was in 1999. I am not kidding. It was the first time! I don’t think I even knew if there was another view. It was when I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary (the bastion of Dispensationalism) and I was swimming with some guys who were at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Once they discovered I was a dispensationalist, they giggled and snickered. They made fun of the rapture, the sacrificial system during the millennium, and the mark of the beast (which, at that time, was some type of barcode). It was as if they patted me on the head and said “It’s okay . . . nice little dispensationalist.” I was so angry. I was humiliated. I was a second-rate theologian. They were “Covenantalists” (whatever that was). But they were the cool guys who believed in the historic Christian faith and I was the cultural Christian, believing in novel ideas.

(Excerpt) Read more at reclaimingthemind.org ...


TOPICS: Humor; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: dispensationalism
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To: CynicalBear

Thank you for posting that link. It is indeed the meat for our times, for the Lord Himself is soon to descend from Heaven with a shout, told in Rev 4:1, to ‘come up hither’. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.


461 posted on 05/26/2015 3:37:10 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: editor-surveyor; Buggman; xzins; roamer_1; redleghunter
>>Michael Rood has no connection whatsoever with The Way International<<

It's where he was "ordained" and where he got his start. He spent nearly two decades in that cult. Are you now denying that? Well, let's look at some information.

From here.

Background

Employment History

Washington Area Director The Way International
Way International Limb Coordinator Or Director The Way International
Jewish Gentile Rabbi, and Reverend Marines

Board Memberships and Affiliations

Member The Way International
Member The New Moon Society
Founder Early Church Communications
Director Capitol Hill Christian Fellowship

Do we have to list all of the times he was promoted as a Messianic karaite Rabbi?

On searchbeat we find this.

Countdown 6001-New Moon Ministries - Messianic Karaite Rabbi Rood teaches seminars on Holidays and Temple. Provides teachings and an agriculturally and astronomically corrected Hebrew calendar, based on Karaite observation.

Now he has abandoned that website and we can easily understand why.

462 posted on 05/26/2015 3:42:58 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: CynicalBear

Someone has chosen to believe Rood’s lies and is now all tied up in them. It will be extremely hard to break through such an shell of deception.


463 posted on 05/26/2015 4:01:11 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: CynicalBear

You make a fool of your self by calling anyone a Karaite Rabbi.

There is no such thing. Rabbis are Pharisees, and Karaites reject Phariseeism.

Rood separated from “The Way” because of their use of the title Rabbi, and of unscriptural artifacts.

You might check with someone that knows what they’re talking about, like Sid Roth, instead of embracing nonsense all the time.


464 posted on 05/26/2015 4:27:45 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: smvoice

You use the term Kingdom wildly.

Usually “The Kingdom” refers to the Kingdom Of God.

The earthly kingdom is a 1000 year reign from the throne of David (Jerusalem).

There is zero evidence in the word that even one single soul will be saved during that reign. It is a demonstration, not a plan for salvation.

One must be the beneficiary of grace to be “changed” to a spiritual body that can exist in the realm of God.

Your definition of “the gospel of the grace of God” is not from scripture, it is man made.

The belief that saves is the belief that leads one to follow Yeshua in every way, not intellectual belief that he died for our sins. As Paul noted, Satan and his angels so believe.


465 posted on 05/26/2015 4:39:26 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

I pray God’s wonderful grace and His tender mercies for you. And His truth. Always His truth.


466 posted on 05/26/2015 4:49:40 PM PDT by smvoice (I would explain it better, but I only know a few words...)
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To: redleghunter; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; Springfield Reformer; ...
. Paul made it clear the same gospel he preached was preached by Cephas and the 11.

Indeed, as the Holy Spirit made it clear the same gospel Paul preached was preached by Cephas and the 11, though Paul mainly provided the theology behind it, and interpretive of the gospels.

But we have been thru the Paul vs. Peter thing before, someplace.

Here is a quick chart written today, praise God.

The gospel of Paul

The gospel of Peter

Comments

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the unGodly. (Romans 5:6)

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:31) (Acts 26:8)

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. (Acts 2:23-24)

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; (Acts 10:39-40)

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Peter 3:18)

Both Peter and Paul preached the atoning death of the Lord Jesus.Christ, and His burial and resurrection.

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21)

Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (Acts 26:19-20)

And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: (Acts 14:15)

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)

In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Colossians 1:14)

Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. (Acts 3:26)

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

Both Peter and Paul preach repentance and faith for the forgiveness of sins.

Note that there is not real difference between confessing the Lord Jesus by moving one's tongue versus moving one's legs to be baptized, and in neither case is there any credit for man.

For God both enables and motivates man to believe, drawing and convicting the soul, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32; 16:9) opening the heart (Acts 16:14) and granting repentant faith. (Acts 11:18; Eph. 2:8,9)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5)

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, (Ephesians 1:13)

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (Acts 15:7-11)

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: (1 Peter 1:18-19)

Both Peter and Paul preached the washing of regeneration by faith, in contrast to the Law.

...when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)...they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. (Galatians 2:7-8,9b)

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26-28)

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (Acts 2:38-39)

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. (Acts 10:28)

Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Acts 10:47)

Both Peter and Paul preached one gospel toward both Jews and Gentiles, and baptized them accordingly.

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. (Titus 2:14)

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24)

Both Peter and Paul preached the atoning death as purposed to bring about practical holiness.

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:31)

And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. (Acts 10:42)

Both Peter and Paul preached that the Lord Jesus would come to be judge of living and dead.


467 posted on 05/26/2015 6:21:38 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: redleghunter

http://lesfeldick.org/lesqa-b.html#2b
We are getting close to a portion of Scripture that I think has been totally confused by almost all groups, and we’re just going to take it for what it says. We’re not going to spiritualize it, or allegorize, it we are going leave it right where it is. Verse 36:

Acts 2:36a

“Therefore (because of all that has just taken place. Israel has had The Messiah for three years, performing signs and miracles, they crucified Him, God raised Him from the dead, and sent the Holy Spirit, and everything is falling into place) let all the house of Israel...”

Now you can’t put us Gentiles in this verse, unless you force it. Peter is speaking to Jews on Covenant grounds. It’s the fulfilling of the Covenant which God made with Abraham. Let’s pause for a moment and go to Chapter 3, so you’ll know what I’m talking about. And again Peter is preaching to a Jew-only crowd.

Acts 3:24,25

“Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.” What days? Everything that has just taken place. According to Peter, the Crucifixion, Resurrection, ascension and coming of the Holy Spirit was prophesied. Look at verse 25:

“Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant (only the Nation of Israel. All prophecy is directed to the Nation of Israel, they are the ones that will be at the core of these prophetic events. Even the horrible events in Revelation will be directed primarily at the Jew. But the whole world will also reap the fallout from these events. Jeremiah 30 tells us it’s the time of Jacob’s trouble) which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, ‘And in thy seed (through the Nation of Israel) shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.’”

So Peter is on Covenant ground. He’s still on the basis that everything that has been since Abraham, that is: the Nation of Israel was to receive the Redeemer, The Messiah, The King and the Kingdom, and it would be through Israel that God would gather the Gentiles. I never like to leave people with the idea that God had cast off the Gentiles. Oh, not at all. But He was going to use the Nation of Israel on Covenant grounds to bring them to Salvation. Even right here God has never said a word to anybody that He’s setting the Covenant promises aside for awhile. He hasn’t told anybody yet that they don’t have to keep Temple worship, or keep the Law. He hasn’t told people they must believe in His death, burial and Resurrection for their Salvation. Not a word about that as of yet. You can’t find it here. And that is what I try to tell people to understand. Don’t take my word for it. Search the Scriptures, but be sure you understand that the Scripture is putting Salvation on His death, burial, and Resurrection. Remember, there is never any reason to force anything into Scripture. Just leave them where they are. You can’t put a square peg in a round hole without doing a lot of damage. So here Peter is still on Covenant ground. Back to Acts 2:36:

Acts 2:36

“Therefore let all the house of Israel (He’s talking to Jew only) know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Now we have to compare Scripture with Scripture. Come to the Book of Galatians, and just look at the difference in the language. We just saw Peter accusing the Nation of Israel of killing their Messiah, and now look what Paul tells us here in the Church Age.

Galatians 1:3,4a

“Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, Who gave himself for our sins,...”

And that’s Paul’s theme all through his writings. It’s as different as day from night with Peter’s message. Peter’s sermon just doesn’t fit Paul’s doctrine at all. And it wasn’t supposed to. God hadn’t revealed Paul’s message yet. It’s still a secret kept in the mind of God. Now back to Acts verse 37:

Acts 2:37

“Now when they heard this (heard what? That they were guilty of crucifying their Messiah. And remember, Peter isn’t just talking to 40 or 50 people. He’s got thousands out in front of him listening out there in that Temple complex. This is the feast of Pentecost and they have come from everywhere as we seen in verses 9-11) they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, ‘Men and brethren what shall (what’s the pronoun?) we do?’”

Remember Peter is addressing this great crowd of Jews on Covenant ground. He has accused them of killing their Messiah, and now they are so convicted that I suppose in one way or another word gets up to Peter as he is speaking. And they say, “Well, Peter, what in the world are we (and remember that pronoun) supposed to do?” Now that is the question coming from the Nation of Israel.


468 posted on 05/26/2015 7:11:26 PM PDT by winodog
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To: winodog

Let’s pick up again in the Book of Acts and for a short review we will start at Chapter 2 verse 36. Remember this is a Jewish feast day that is being celebrated. Jews from the then-known world have come to celebrate the feast of Pentecost. This is one of the seven feasts listed in Leviticus 23. Now it’s on this day of Pentecost that this huge crowd of Jews are out there in the Temple area and Peter, through the power of the Holy Spirit, is addressing this great gathering. And regardless what nations these Jews have come from, they are hearing it in their own language. And this is the miracle of it all. Peter is speaking to Jew only (with an occasional proselyte). There is no Gentile ground here. God doesn’t put Gentiles in this group and neither should we. It’s a Jewish feast day, a Jewish crowd, a Jewish speaker, and a Jewish message. And now verse 36:

Acts 2:36,37

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly (this is all twelve tribes that are represented here, and God knows who they are), that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Peter is accusing these Jews of killing Christ their Messiah. “Now when they heard this they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren what shall we do?” And before we look at Peter’s answer, I want to take you back to Acts Chapter 16.

In Chapter 16, Paul has begun his missionary journey throughout western Turkey. Earlier in this chapter the Holy Spirit directed him over into Greece. One of the first cities he approached there was Philippi. And that is where he met Lydia, who was the first European convert. After the conversion of Lydia, he is arrested and beaten along with Silas, and cast into the lower dungeon of the jail, as in verse 25. The setting is completely different than in Acts 2. This is all Gentile ground, a Gentile prison, a Gentile jailer, This Gentile jailer may have witnessed Paul and Silas preaching, and saw their arrest and beating. Now he was given charge over these two men along with the rest of the prisoners.

Acts 16:25-29

“And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God; and the prisoners heard them.”

“And suddenly there was a great earthquake (we still haven’t left the economy of signs and miracles, and wonders. These will pass off the scene in Paul’s ministry at a little later time. But at this time we have a miraculous earthquake with a distinct purpose), so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one’s bands were loosed.”

“And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.” The Roman authority would have killed him if prisoners had escaped.

“But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, ‘Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.’” Although they could have fled they didn’t, because this is a Sovereign God at work.

“Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,”

Why did this pagan Gentile jailer pick Paul and Silas out of all his prisoners? Somehow, God let him know that here was the answer to his dilemma. He’s got all these prisoners loose, ready to flee, but they are staying there. God lets that jailer know the answer to his problem, but it’s going to be a lot more than a bunch of prisoners, it’s going to be the man’s own soul.

Acts 16:30

“And brought them (Paul and Silas) out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” Now look at the comparison.

Peter, preaching in Acts Chapter 2, is dealing with the Covenant Nation of Israel. And they say in verse 37, “What must we do?” But God doesn’t deal with Gentiles on Covenant ground. He deals with us as individuals. Every individual has to ask that same question. “What must I do...?” Let’s compare the answers each were given. In Acts Chapter 2, it is very clear, anyone can understand it. I’m leaving every word the way it’s in your Bible and mine. I’m not changing a thing. Israel says, “What must we do?” Look at Peter’s answer.

Acts 2:38

“Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized (the next two words are crucial) every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,’”

Everyone of them would have to be converted and accept Christ as their Messiah for God to pick up where He had left off. He would have sent back The King and set up the Kingdom. Peter also tells them this in Acts 3:26. Look at the message. Peter says, “Repent and be baptized.” Who began that message? John the Baptist. John was the herald of The King, and his message was, “Repent and be baptized.” That was for the Nation of Israel. Now compare this with Paul’s answer to the Gentile in Acts Chapter 16. Paul is not talking to the Nation of Israel, he’s talking to a Gentile. And when this Gentile asks what he must do to be saved, what does Paul tell him?

Acts 16:31

“And they (Paul and Silas) said, ‘Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.’”

Does it say Repent and be baptized? No, and if that was the criteria it would have been in here. That was the Jewish program, and by this time it has fallen through the cracks because Israel is rejecting it again. God has now turned to the Gentiles through the Apostle Paul, without Israel. So the jailer said, “What must I do?” The answer is simple: “Only Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ.” Now when you know the rest of Paul’s message, he only had one Gospel to believe: “That Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose from the dead.” You can find that message in many places in Paul’s letters, for example I Corinthians 15:1-4. Believe the Gospel. And it’s no different for Gentiles today, and the Jew as well. That is the criteria tonight. We have to believe the Gospel and nothing else. You search Paul’s letters from Romans through Hebrews (and Hebrews is more Jewish than the rest and there is a reason for that), and show me one place where Paul teaches repentance and baptism for Salvation. You won’t find it. Paul doesn’t teach it. Paul’s message is a different economy and you can’t mix them. A lot of people try to. Our Lord didn’t mix them and neither should we. The verses in Galatians 2:7-9 exist because they were two different messages. That’s why Peter says Paul’s message of Salvation is hard for him to understand in II Peter 3:15-16. To the Jew it was repent and be baptized. To the Gentile it is believe the Gospel. See how simple that is. Now let’s come back to Acts 2 and make another tremendous comparison. Read verse 38 again:

Acts 2:38

“Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,...’” The whole Nation of Israel had to repent and be baptized.

Winning the whole world has never been implied with Paul. In Acts 15, when even James had to agree that God is using Paul to go to the Gentiles, what was the expression that James used? Calling out a people for His name. That doesn’t imply 99 or 100%. Christianity has always been just a small percentage. But we should always be ready to share the Gospel that Paul presents to everyone we come in contact with when the opportunity presents itself. I get a kick out of the Gallop polls, the last one I saw was 60% of Americans were professing Christians. That’s a joke because 60% of the Bible belt aren’t Bible believing Christians, let alone other vast areas of our country. But it’s always been that very small percentage, and it hasn’t changed that much. Another comparison here in verse 38:

Acts 2:38

“...and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,”

I’ve had questions asked of me about this for many years, and let me ask you a question. What was the prerequisite in this verse for receiving the Holy Spirit? Repentance and baptism. That is the first part of the verse. Look at it again:

Acts 2:38

“...Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Is there any mention of the death, burial, and Resurrection? Any mention of the shed blood for atonement? Not a word. But only the name. When you talk about the name of someone, what does that imply? Who he is. If I say the name of one of our Presidents, what do you associate that with? The White House. You speak the name and immediately it’s the position that you’re tied to. So, Peter doesn’t mention death, burial, and Resurrection. But what were they to put their faith in? Who Jesus was. He was The Christ their Messiah, and they had killed Him. But God had raised Him from the dead. They were to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and then they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. In Acts Chapter 10, we have Peter at the house of Cornelius, a Gentile. This is seven years after the Cross. Not a Gentile has been saved. Back in Acts 2, the Jews had to repent and be baptized, then they could receive the Holy Spirit. Now look at what it says here:

Acts 10:44

“While Peter yet spake (he hadn’t come to the end of his message) these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. “

And we know they all believed. Have they been baptized yet? No, these are Gentiles who haven’t heard anything of the Law. But the moment they believed Peter’s message the Holy Spirit came down, and the amazing thing is God had to prove to Peter and these six other Jews that God was doing something totally new, and that was saving Gentiles! Not on the basis of repentance and baptism, but the moment they heard the word and believed. Peter is still tied to that Jewish economy, so when he sees what is happening he commands these Gentile believers to be baptized after the fact instead of before as we saw in Acts 2:38:

Acts 10:47

“Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have (past tense) received the Holy Ghost as well as we?”

This isn’t a contradiction, this is not Chapter 10 contradicting Chapter 2, but rather a change of events. Ten is Gentile and Two is still Jew. Acts is a transitional book, so always be aware that what was good for the Jew under that Jewish economy seems like a contradiction, but it’s not, it’s only God changing the program. The moment we believe for our Salvation the Gospel of Grace, that Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose from the dead, the Holy Spirit baptizes us and we are saved. Don’t put the message that Peter preached and the message that Paul preached in a blender and mix it all up and expect to understand it. That will give you heartburn, and you will never be able to see what you should clearly believe for your Salvation. But if you will realize that God is changing the program when He goes to the Gentiles, and leave the Scriptures right where they are, I believe the Scriptures will be opened to you. So many people come into my classes and almost immediately have their eyes opened. I don’t do that, the Holy Spirit does that when you search the Scriptures.

Editor’s Note: Peter’s gospel, called the gospel of the kingdom or the gospel of the circumcision, was preached to the nation of Israel under the law of Moses. Paul’s gospel, called the gospel of grace or the gospel of the uncircumcision, was preached to the Gentiles under grace. Whether we are Jew or Gentile, Paul’s gospel is the way of salvation for us in this present age of grace.


469 posted on 05/26/2015 7:12:25 PM PDT by winodog
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To: smvoice

Certainly.

And I’d appreciate your prayers too.

This mast cell thing is always in a state of flux, some days are better than others, but overall is never getting better.


470 posted on 05/26/2015 7:23:51 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: daniel1212
I feel I am forced to defend my position. And I will, with Scripture. One more time.

I'll take it from the beginning: The first point states that both Peter and Paul preached the atoning death of Jesus Christ and His burial and resurrection. Peter did not preach the cross and Christ's death as GOOD NEWS. Read the sermon again. Peter at Pentecost had ACCUSED his hearers of crucifying Christ and had DEMANDED repentance and baptism for the remission of sins.(Acts 2:23,36,38). Paul proclaimed the crucifixion of Christ as GOOD NEWS (1 Cor. 1:18).

Question: IF Peter preached the same gospel of the grace of God as Paul, why did Peter demand repentance and water baptism FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS? Peter referred to the crucifixion, BUT DID NOT OFFER IT FOR SALVATION. Read his sermon again to see this important point. Without preaching the cross as our salvation, there is no gospel of the grace of God. Christ was set forth to be a propitiation THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD (Rom. 3:25). THAT'S THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD.

As an aside, did those who heard Peter's Pentecost sermon repent, get baptized and rejoice in the fact that they were now IN CHRIST? That their inheritance was in heaven and they were now all filled with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places? No. They repented, were baptized, sold everything they had, and waited for Christ to return to set up His kingdom. They did this because they knew prophecy and they knew the covenants God made with Abraham and David and they knew they were going to enter the millennial kingdom with Christ ruling. Is there anyone who can see this and see it's NOT part of the gospel of the grace of God, which pertains to heavenly blessings, but it IS part of the kingdom gospel which pertains to Israel, the Messiah, His kingdom, and their priesthood to the Gentiles.

What Peter DID demand was demanded in the gospel of the kingdom though. So which gospel did he preach? One that DID include water baptism and repentance. NOT faith in the finished work of Christ, that He died FOR OUR SINS, or that faith in Him would place us, by the Holy Spirit, into the Body of Christ.

1st Peter 3:18 is mentioned. THIS is about grace. But look when it was written, AFTER PAUL WAS SAVED, AFTER PAUL WENT TO JERUSALEM and communicated unto them (Peter, James and John) THAT GOSPEL that he preached among the Gentiles. They PERCEIVED THE GRACE THAT WAS GIVEN TO HIM and gave him the right hands of fellowship. Galatians Chapter 2. All of it. They learned the message (That gospel I preach among the Gentiles, Paul said) HERE. From Paul.

Acts 26:19-20: "Works meet for repentance. Not works meet for salvation. Where is the "baptism for the REMISSION OF SINS"? that Peter preached? " Peter said "repent and be baptized FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS. He did NOT say "Should be baptized" or "if you feel led to be baptized". He said that remission of sins demanded 1)repentance and 2)baptism. This is what God's word PLAINLY states. Paul in no place states that repentance is demanded for remission of sins. Or baptism. Once again, one gospel DID demand these very things: the gospel of the kingdom. The gospel of the grace of God did NOT. THEY ARE DIFFERENT.

Cornelius. Did Peter go to him as part of the great commission Christ gave them? Christ told them to go to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. So Peter must have jumped at the chance to go to a Gentile with the gospel. Acts Chapter 10 says differently. First he had to be given a VISION. He "rehearsed the matter". He "doubted in himself what this vision should mean. He had to be given the vision 3 times. For someone who understood that he was to take the gospel to all the nations, he sure did not act that way. If he already had been told what to do and he knew he was commissioned to do it, why the argument with God? In the gospel of the kingdom, the children (Israel) must be fed first. Once they have accepted Christ as Messiah, they are to go to the Gentiles with the good news. BUt they did NOT, as a nation, accept Christ. What could God do to insure that the Gentiles received salvation? He could wait to see if Israel would ever accept Him, He could postpone the times of the Gentiles until Israel had accepted Him, or He could raise up another Apostle, to carry the gospel of His grace to the Gentiles, apart from Israel. BTW: Note that Peter and Cornelius happens AFTER Paul is saved. This too is important. It is because of Peter's experience with Cornelius that Peter and the 11 ACCEPTED Paul's message and apostleship. Without the Cornelius meeting, Peter and the 11 would have remained preaching the kingdom gospel to the Jews and waiting for them to accept Christ before they went to all the nations. Does anyone understand this?

And BTW what gospel would Peter have given Cornelius? That by grace he was saved through faith and that not of himself it was the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast? Or repentance and baptism for the remission of sins? Also, read Peter's sermon, Acts 10:34-48. He preached that Christ had died and was raised up the third day. But WHERE does he say that Christ's death was FOR OUR SINS? If Peter understood that whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins, that Christ's death was FOR OUR SINS, why baptize them? The baptism they preached was "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins". The very fact that he baptized them shows that baptism was part of that gospel. The gospel of the grace of God requires NOTHING to be added to the finished work of Christ for our salvation.

And BTW: The Galatians baptism you wrote of is the Holy Spirit baptizing us into the Body of Christ when we are saved. It is spiritual, not water. It is the Holy Spirit doing the baptism, not water. Ephesians 4:4-6 makes that clear: there is NOW ONE baptism. Not two. Not water AND the spiritual baptism the Holy Spirit performs to place us into the Body. Both the baptism and circumcision are spiritual.

The rest of your Scriptures are from 1 Peter. You do understand that by the time Peter wrote these he well understood Paul's message of grace?

It truly is not my intention to argue with anyone. But it IS my intention to explain WHY, WITH SCRIPTURE that IF READ AS IT IS WRITTEN, I believe how I do. I cannot NOT stand for what I believe. And all our discussions are over the meat of God's word. We, as members of the Body of Christ, have all accepted the finished work of Christ for our salvation, and everything else is just Bible study, having no baring on our salvation. I hope you know and believe that. God Bless you with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.

471 posted on 05/26/2015 8:05:48 PM PDT by smvoice (I would explain it better, but I only know a few words...)
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To: metmom

Will do. God bless!


472 posted on 05/26/2015 8:07:21 PM PDT by smvoice (I would explain it better, but I only know a few words...)
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To: smvoice

I still don’t think I ‘get’ what you’re saying.


473 posted on 05/26/2015 8:08:49 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

I know you don’t editor. And I don’t know how else to explain it. The Words say what they say. It’s that simple.


474 posted on 05/26/2015 8:10:28 PM PDT by smvoice (I would explain it better, but I only know a few words...)
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To: MHGinTN

I read your endorsement of the multiple gospel hyperdispensationalism heresy. Have you been baptized with water or do you also reject water baptism as commanded by the Messiah ?


475 posted on 05/26/2015 8:33:18 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: redleghunter
I have provided you with what the Bible ACTUALLY SAYS. You have provided the readers here with a theory of what SOMEONE other than the apostles preached.

We went the length on this versus some HD's some time ago (here is one post which summarizes and responds to much, by God's grace) and it became apparent that certain advocates, one in particular IIRC, unreasonably zealously contended for this despite the evidence against it, like as RCs so often do.

Thus extended attempts at reasonably debate. The hyper doctrine seems to attract a certain exclusive mentality.

476 posted on 05/26/2015 8:35:38 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: smvoice

Selah! Your effort has regaled my soul. Thank you, Lady.


477 posted on 05/26/2015 8:39:12 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: af_vet_1981
But have you yet read the Gospel, the one preached by Jesus, Peter, Paul, Philip, etc? I really don't care what you think of dispensationalism or even water baptism. I care about your immortal soul. Have you heard The Gospel yet?

Insult me all you like, I care not. But I do care about your immortal soul. God loves you so much that he sends old men like me to be made fools of over the Internet if we may awaken you to The Gospel in its simplicity and power to birth you from above. Once born, you cannot be unborn, and by His Promise you may be born from above by simply believing He is The Christ and God has raised Him from the dead so that by your faith in His Promise to be your Savior you will be born again, born from above.

BTW, I was total immersion baptized by Preacher Bill, in East Tennessee in 1973. I was led to Christ by my good friend from college, Carlton Sheffield Villier, who could not wait to come down to Birmingham, AL and share the news that He had been born again from above. My friend Shef passed away a couple of weeks ago, but I shall see him again soon, when the Rapture raises him from that gravesite I attended and I join him in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Want to join us?

478 posted on 05/26/2015 8:50:45 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: MHGinTN

And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam the son of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said: He hath said, which heard the words of God, and knew the knowledge of the most High, which saw the vision of the Almighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open: I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth. And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly. Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.

Balaam also the son of Beor, the soothsayer, did the children of Israel slay with the sword among them that were slain by them.

And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke. According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence. So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Numbers, Catholic chapter twenty four, Protestant verses fifteen to nineteen,
Joshua, Catholic chapter thirteen, Protestant verse twenty two,
Isaiah, Catholic chapter fifty nine, Protestant verses sixteen to nineteen,
Matthew, Catholic chapter seven, Protestant verses twenty one to twenty three,
Matthew, Catholic chapter wight, Protestant verses five to thirteen,
Revelation, Catholic chapter two, Protestant verses twelve to seventeen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

479 posted on 05/26/2015 9:09:22 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981

You and Elsie are excellent drag and pasters. But have you read/heard the Gospel in all its simplicity?


480 posted on 05/26/2015 9:12:48 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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