Posted on 05/08/2015 6:05:46 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
The First Apostles
The question I have is: does the Catholic Church actually agree with what Augustine says in the link you provided? For instance, Chapters 36 & 39:
Chapter 36.— God Not Only Foreknows that Men Will Be Good, But Himself Makes Them So.
It is He Himself, therefore, that makes those men good, to do good works. For He did not promise them to Abraham because He foreknew that of themselves they would be good. For if this were the case, what He promised was not His, but theirs. But it was not thus that Abraham believed, but
he was not weak in faith, giving glory to God;andmost fully believing that what He has promised He is able also to perform.Romans 4:19 He does not say,What He foreknew, He is able to promise;norWhat He foretold, He is able to manifest;norWhat He promised, He is able to foreknow:butWhat He promised, He is able also to do.It is He, therefore, who makes them to persevere in good, who makes them good. But they who fall and perish have never been in the number of the predestinated. Although, then, the apostle might be speaking of all persons regenerated and living piously when he said,Who are you that judgest another man's servant? To his own master he stands or falls;yet he at once had regard to the predestinated, and said,But he shall stand;and that they might not arrogate this to themselves, he says,For God is able to make him stand.Romans 14:4, etc. It is He Himself, therefore, that gives perseverance, who is able to establish those who stand, so that they may stand fast with the greatest perseverance; or to restore those who have fallen, forthe Lord sets up those who are broken down.Chapter 39 [XIII.]— The Number of the Predestinated is Certain and Defined.
I speak thus of those who are predestinated to the kingdom of God, whose number is so certain that one can neither be added to them nor taken from them; not of those who, when He had announced and spoken, were multiplied beyond number. For they may be said to be called but not chosen, because they are not called according to the purpose. But that the number of the elect is certain, and neither to be increased nor diminished—although it is signified by John the Baptist when he says,
Bring forth, therefore, fruits meet for repentance: and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham,Matthew 3:8-9 to show that they were in such wise to be cut off if they did not produce fruit, that the number which was promised to Abraham would not be wanting—is yet more plainly declared in the Apocalypse:Hold fast that which you have, lest another take your crown.Revelation 3:11 For if another would not receive unless one should have lost, the number is fixed.
Of course this is just more Roman foolishness.
No where does the scripture institute a group of men to replace HIM.. to make decisions for HIM ...
The magisterium is an invention of men ... remember the promise to eve ? "Ye shall be as god"...that is something that men desire...and Rome gives that to a few..
Really??Are you saying THEY were infallible ??
bookmark
Really??Are you saying THEY were infallible ??
I think Jesus said something like that in John 16:12-15
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Interesting that you should ask. From today's first reading of the Mass:
Then the apostles and presbyters, in agreement with the whole church, decided to choose representatives and to send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. The ones chosen were Judas, who was called Barsabbas, and Silas, leaders among the brothers.The pastors of the church, the apostles and the presbyters -- not just the apostles, are here invoking the authority of the God, the Holy Spirit in giving their judgment. That seems to be the operation of the Magisterium to me. Of course if you do not take the Bible at its word you can discount this.This is the letter delivered by them: “The apostles and the presbyters, your brothers, to the brothers in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia of Gentile origin: greetings. Since we have heard that some of our number [who went out] without any mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind, we have with one accord decided to choose representatives and to send them to you along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, who have dedicated their lives to the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. So we are sending Judas and Silas who will also convey this same message by word of mouth: ‘It is the decision of the holy Spirit and of us not to place on you any burden beyond these necessities, namely, to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood, from meats of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage. If you keep free of these, you will be doing what is right. Farewell.’” (Acts 15:22-29)
Well, it may be to you, but that's not what the Scriptures say.
And that is a perfect example of the Roman Catholic Church twisting Scripture to conform to its man-made office.
So, in actuality, when I take God at his word in scripture, I discount the Roman Catholic Cult.
Hoss
That's not Chapter and Verse.
Where does Scripture SAY that Christ instituted the Magicsterium? Chapter and verse, please.
Hoss
Actually, no.
This passage doesn't say the Apostles somehow became infallible; it DOES say that the HOLY SPIRIT will guide them to all the truth. It says HE will speak and tell them (the Apostles) what is yet to come. The passage says that the Holy Spirit will glorify Christ because all that belongs to the Father belongs to Christ.
Says NOTHING about the Apostles suddenly becoming infallible.
Hoss
The Apostles who wrote Scripture absolutely were infallible in writing Scripture.
I didn’t say it was actually. I said something like that. Seems to me that being guided to the truth by the Holy Spirit is a pretty good thing.
Thou art Cephas (Rock)and on this Rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
I am a Reformed Christian, which would put me within the orbit of Augustine. Not all Protestants would feel that way though, so the larger thrust of the thread is the divergence of views between Catholicsm and Augustine.
He says something like that, yes, but his definition of "Catholic" was indeed Universal. Not "Roman" "Catholic," which two words are, when you think about it, are contradictory in meaning.
Acts is a time of transition. The offer of the Kingdom of Heaven is still on the table. The apostles were Jews, as were most early converts. They were still praying in the Temple, keeping the Law and the traditions. The Gentile Believers were NOT converting to Judaism, therefore they were not bound by Israel’s customs and traditions. Its commonsense. Paul’s Revelation of the Body of Christ would come much later, setting people free from all ceremonialism and ordinances.
Religious leaders deciding on application of Jewish Law to Gentile Believers has little relevance to Christians in this present dispensation of Grace. It certainly does not establish any precedent for a tyrannical religious bureaucracy ruling over the Body of Christ.
Now, there is neither Jew or Gentile, male of female, in the Body of Christ. (Galatians 3:28, 5:6, Colossians 3:11) There is one Body with Jesus, not some man or religious monarchy, but the personified Eternal Truth, as the Head of the Body. Believers in this dispensation are made alive in Christ, blessed with ALL Spiritual Blessings, and seated in the Heavenly places in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 1:1-14, 2:5-10) The division that once existed, and has been recreated by the religious during this dispensation, has no place in the Body. All that divides - decrees, ordinances, and religious hooey from the past, or in the future, has no use in the Body. The Believer is COMPLETE in Christ, who is the Head of All authority. (Ephesians 2:11-22, Colossians 2:1-23) If you are COMPLETE in Christ, what more could religion even do for you?
Believers are citizens of Heaven. Our focus is not earthly things like religion, but is placed squarely on Jesus Christ. (Philippians 3:1-21, Colossians 3:1-25)
Of course if you fail to rightly divide God’s Word, and ignore the letters written specifically to the Body of Christ, its easy to miss these important Truths. Failure to believe God’s Word has left millions stuck in religious bondage, and not enjoying the Liberty found in Christ.
Nope. They were humans -- fallible and fallen -- HOWEVER, the Holy Spirit which gave them what they were to write IS infallible -- he is God.
The Magicsterium is a man-made thing -- and fallible as you or I -- the Holy Spirit provided the scriptures that were written... to claim infallibility is to make someone like God. Only HE is infallible.
More Roman idolatry is what it sounds like to me.
Hoss
You said Jesus said something "like that" -- seemingly to agree that the Apostles were infallible... sorry if I misunderstood. However, the scripture quoted says nothing about a Magicsterium or the alleged infallibility of the Apostles.
Being guided by the Holy Spirit is a wonderful thing and a gift that every Christian enjoys. But it doesn't make us infallible.
Hoss
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