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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: Elsie

Your reading comprehension is less than what is required to understand Revelation, apparently.

The first resurrection is the first resurrection, not the last one!

The one that you wish to believe is the first resurrection is the resurrection unto judgement and death, not the resurrection unto life eternal.

The first sentence of verse 5 is parenthetical, explaining that there will be another resurrection unto death 1000 years thereafter, and that the resurrection under discussion is not that one, but the first resurrection.

There is none so blind as he who will not see!


881 posted on 04/23/2015 8:27:06 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: 5thGenTexan

.
>> “those who have gone to Heaven before us” <<

Read John 3:13.

Nobody has gone to heaven, but he who came down from heaven.

The dead sleep in the bosom of Abraham.

All who will ever be resurrected will be resurrected at the day of Trumpets. This is declared by Yeshua in Matthew 24, and affirmed by Paul in 1Corinthians 15, and 1Thessalonians 4.


882 posted on 04/23/2015 8:45:06 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor; Elsie
The one that you wish to believe is the first resurrection is the resurrection unto judgement and death, not the resurrection unto life eternal.

Alternative views can be very useful in preparation and planning. But when you're not the only one looking at what has been constructed, be careful that your eyesight is in good working order or folks might wonder.

Is this a splinter/tree trunk sort of situation we have here? (Careful with the snides.)
883 posted on 04/23/2015 8:45:22 AM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Elsie

That’s funny, it was a Navy repair tech who trained me on our in-circuit emulator for the 6803. I had taken classes in Pascal programming but I didn’t really get what was going on in a computer until stepping through 6803 instructions. Then it clicked.


884 posted on 04/23/2015 8:46:43 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (God is very intollerant, why shouldn't I be?)
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To: editor-surveyor
All who will ever be resurrected will be resurrected at the day of Trumpets.

Perhaps you are correct. Likely not. Very unclear what you may mean. Only one resurrection is in Scripture? Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment are the same resurrection?

Not the way I and other Christians hear or read, and understand it.
885 posted on 04/23/2015 8:52:14 AM PDT by Resettozero
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Comment #886 Removed by Moderator

To: editor-surveyor

Yikes!

Well, okay then.

(Wow.)


887 posted on 04/23/2015 8:58:04 AM PDT by Resettozero
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Comment #888 Removed by Moderator

To: Resettozero

.
>> “Only one resurrection is in Scripture? Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment are the same resurrection?” <<

.
That is a nonsense strawman for sure!

There is only one resurrection unto eternal life. That is the first resurrection at the day of Trumpets as described by Yeshua and Paul.

The other resurrection is 1000 years later, after we have ruled with Yeshua for 1000 years as described by John in Revelation 20. That is the resurrection of the damned, the Great White Throne judgement.

Those that are under Grace do not face that judgement.
.


889 posted on 04/23/2015 10:51:41 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
That is a nonsense strawman for sure!

I asked if that was what you meant. It sounded as if that was what you were saying. You were unclear.

Why the antagonism today?
890 posted on 04/23/2015 11:00:29 AM PDT by Resettozero
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To: editor-surveyor

Tone it down.


891 posted on 04/23/2015 11:11:26 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: NYer

John 5:28-29 28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Psalm 115:7 It is not the dead who praise the Lord, those who go down to the place of silence;

Acts 2:34a For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said...

Psalm 6:5 Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?

Psalm 146: 2-4 will praise the Lord all my life; I will sing praise to my God as long as I live Do not put your trust in princes, in human beings, who cannot save. When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.


892 posted on 04/23/2015 11:13:59 AM PDT by Preachin' (I stand with many voters who will never vote for a pro abortion candidate.)
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To: Religion Moderator

What exactly are you referring to?


893 posted on 04/23/2015 11:27:33 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Resettozero

How was I unclear?

I have posted quite a number of times in this thread that there is one and only one resurrection unto life.

The GWT is a resurrection unto death. I comes after the Earth and the heavens have departed. It is the cleanup of unfinished business.
.


894 posted on 04/23/2015 11:33:28 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Preachin'

.
Excellent collection of verses!
.


895 posted on 04/23/2015 11:36:43 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

You are correct.

I recalled poorly. Only the CITY of slc is from the cornerstone.


896 posted on 04/23/2015 2:49:50 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor
Never be a Wikipedophile!

It wasn't wrong.

I failed to read it.

897 posted on 04/23/2015 2:50:35 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor
The first sentence of verse 5 is parenthetical,

Now why didn't I know that???

898 posted on 04/23/2015 2:51:16 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DungeonMaster
 I was working out of the castle on the night watch when a call came in from the chief...
 
Being on a night shift allowed me plenty of time to check stuff out while waiting for the automated equipment to finish a test.  Inspection had a DEC **** (something) that tested wiring harnesses for various equipment we were building.  I was assigned to hook them up and run the continuity/short tests.
 

I was a mere trained (slightly) monkey that pushed the buttons in the right sequence.   As I knew nothing of big coumputers at the time, I was curious as to their inner workings.
 
The lab had plenty of books, and I found a BASIC manual.
 
After a little reading I figured out the 'basic' stuff needed and was soon writing little programs that ran on the testing computer.
 
I found out that out MAINFRAME (in a special room all it's own; complete with the guys in white labs coats) ALSO RAN basic.
 
We had dumb terminals thruout the plant that any one with a password could use to enter various types of data for record keeping.
 
It would sit there with it's entry page, just waiting for someone to talk to it.
 
If you typed in the wrong password, it would tell you so and go back to the entry page again.  (I suppose you could a bunch of them; hoping to find someone elses...)
 
Did I mention the system wasn't too reliable?  I guess the big machines we had running throut the plant would cause glitches that made stuff go goofy, show a bunch of random characters on the screen and then locking up.
 
Once you DID gain entry to the system; it was YOURS!  (Well a LOT of it I guess.)
The * meant it was ready to run something; ANYTHING that you told it to do.
 
Yes, BASIC was a word it would accept, and then you could write or run a BASIC program that it had stored.
 
 
You know it took very little code to put up a FAKE entry screen?  
 
 
The next person who came behind me found what LOOKED to be a normal configuration, but when they tryed to use it, it would store their password for me, and loop back for them to try again.
Now it's easy to ASSUME that you typed it wrong; so you do it again; with the same results.
 
But this time it jumped out of the loop, printed some random characters on the screen and then went into an infinite looping, causing a REAL hangup.
 
The only way out was the same way as reseting the terminal: the escape key.
 
This also was the way to get the REAL entry page back.
 
I collected some doozy passwords, but never could figger out what to do with them since I already had access anyway.
 
 
I guess I was phishing before the term was invented.
 
 
 
 
 

899 posted on 04/23/2015 3:18:43 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor
The GWT is a resurrection unto death.

Darn that John for being so hazy in his writing!!

Didn't he realize that DEATH and book of LIFE would get confused by some?


 
Revelation 20:11-15
"Then I saw a great White Throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and THE BOOKS WERE OPENED. Another book was opened WHICH IS THE BOOK OF LIFE. The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to their works.  Then death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
 
 
 

900 posted on 04/23/2015 3:23:07 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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