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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: NYer

bumpus ad summum


861 posted on 04/22/2015 8:20:12 PM PDT by Dajjal (Justice Robert Jackson was wrong -- the Constitution IS a suicide pact.)
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To: 5thGenTexan
I agree exactly! Involving fellow believers in the day to day needs we have - whether for physical healing, spiritual warfare, personal failings, family, friends, etc. - gives us a stake in each other's lives and we see our faith grow as we acknowledge Almighty God's hand in answering every concern we have. I just don't see that same kind of dynamic happening with prayers to the departed "Saints". There isn't a direct connection - we don't hear, see, touch, speak or otherwise have any assurance that our prayers are "being handled". When our petitions are NOT answered, we have nothing, no feedback, with which to determine WHY they weren't and how we could change in what we ask for.

I also believe it is God that receives ALL the glory, honor and praise when we involve others in interceding with us because we actually see specific requests get answered and we rejoice together in gratitude to our Lord and Savior for His mercy, grace and love and for caring about everything that concerns us. Putting such needs before an unseen, dead person - Saint or saint - just doesn't provide the same assurance of knowing HE hears us and will provide all our needs in Christ Jesus - and He is NEVER too busy.

    Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. (Philippians 4:6,7)

862 posted on 04/22/2015 11:22:12 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: metmom
The title is wrong.

True. If Cath wanted to be sure to avoid blasphemy then at least they would be careful to call her the mother of God the Son. RCs even refrain from calling Mary the Theotokos as "God-bearer," which is less likely to be misunderstood than "Mother of God," since that naturally denotes ontological oneness.

But instead RCs insist on the most easily misleading term, as they are either ignorant or would rather exalt Mary as a demigoddess than be careful to avoid fostering a blasphemous idea about Mary.

863 posted on 04/23/2015 2:23:41 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; Iscool; ealgeone; metmom; boatbums; presently no screen name; redleghunter; ...
It was a mistake for me to use the word "nobody," since it can be falsified by a single person who holds this erroneous position. That probably led this discussion down a rabbit trail. My bad; sorry.

Thanks. I would have saved me some typing if that had been clarified earlier.

What I ought to have said, is that this is what the Catholic Church calls heresy.

Then you would be saying that what Iscool posted from RCs was heresy. Could you be specific about what was?

I know of nothing that can be said to violate RC doctrine, for while Rome "exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations [not merely exaggerations]...Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church," yet by choosing to primarily use the most easily misunderstood term "Mother of God," since that naturally denotes ontological oneness, then the Vatican itself fosters leading separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church, as evidenced here.

Meanwhile, the gross exaggerations of Mary's place and power by her own popes interpret the such exhortations as the above exaggerations while Rome "admonishes all the sons of the Church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered..." (LUMEN GENTIUM) "Generously fostered" equates to "gross exaggerations" Biblically speaking.

Scripture nowhere records a women who never sinned, and was a perpetual virgin despite being married (contrary to the normal description of marriage, as in leaving and sexually cleaving) and who would be bodily assumed to Heaven and exalted (officially or with implicit sanction) as

an almost almighty demigoddess to whom "Jesus owes His Precious Blood" to,

whose [Mary] merits we are saved by,

who "had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin,"

and was bodily assumed into Heaven, which is a fact (unsubstantiated in Scripture or even early Tradition) because the Roman church says it is, and "was elevated to a certain affinity with the Heavenly Father,"

and whose power now "is all but unlimited,"

for indeed she "seems to have the same power as God,"

"surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven,"

so that "the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse."

and that “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus,"

for indeed saints have "but one advocate," and that is Mary, who "alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation,"

Moreover, "there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose,"

and who has "authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven,"

including "assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels,"

whom the good angels "unceasingly call out to," greeting her "countless times each day with 'Hail, Mary,' while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests,"

and who (obviously) cannot "be honored to excess,"

and who is (obviously) the glory of Catholic people, whose "honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation." Sources and more.

BTW, I have seen more expressions of individual and group vilificaion on this thread, than I have seen ever before on the FRRF.

I have actually not been reading thru the tread, only responding to posts to me so i cannot comment on what others see.

864 posted on 04/23/2015 2:46:24 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
...RCs insist on the most easily misleading term, as they are either ignorant or would rather exalt Mary as a demigoddess than be careful to avoid fostering a blasphemous idea about Mary.

It's an obvious assessment. That had not come to me before. Thank you.
865 posted on 04/23/2015 5:01:49 AM PDT by Resettozero
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To: boatbums; 5thGenTexan

Amen!!!!


866 posted on 04/23/2015 5:08:35 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Eucharista
...except that we did.

LOL

867 posted on 04/23/2015 7:07:11 AM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good.)
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To: Iscool

ha ha!


868 posted on 04/23/2015 7:19:19 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor
 
Matthew 24,                    A little smaller still...
1 Corinthians 15,             A little smaller still...
 
 
1Thessalonians 4:16-18,

16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.

17 Wherefore, comfort ye one another with these words.       (first?)

Revelation 20:6               
 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. In these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ; and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Yeah; it's mentioned all right.   You've got to post the PREVIOUS verse to find it: The rest of the dead lived not, till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 
 

869 posted on 04/23/2015 7:28:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: BlueDragon
Speaking of boots and fence posts...


Cowboy Poetry
by Bill Jones
 
 
 

Jake, the rancher, went one day
to fix a distant fence.
The wind was cold and gusty
and the clouds rolled gray and dense.

As he pounded the last staples in
and gathered tools to go,
The temperature had fallen,
the wind and snow began to blow.

When he finally reached his pickup,
he felt a heavy heart.
From the sound of that ignition,
he knew it wouldn't start.

So Jake did what most of us
would do if we had been there.
He humbly bowed his balding head
and sent aloft a prayer.

As he turned the key for the last time,
he softly cursed his luck.
They found him three days later,
frozen stiff in that old truck.

Now Jake had been around in life
and done his share of roaming.
But when he saw Heaven, he was shocked --
it looked just like Wyoming!

Of all the saints in Heaven,
his favorite was St. Peter.
(Now, this here line ain't needed
but it helps with rhyme and meter)

So they sat and talked a minute or two,
or maybe it was three.
Nobody was keeping' score --
in Heaven time is free.

"I've always heard," Jake said to Pete,
"that God will answer prayer,
But one time I asked for help,
well, he just plain wasn't there."

"Does God answer prayers of some,
and ignore the prayers of others?
That don't seem exactly square --
I know all men are brothers."

"Or does he randomly reply,
without good rhyme or reason?
Maybe, it's the time of day,
the weather or the season."

"Now I ain't trying to act smart,
it's just the way I feel.
And I was wondering', could you tell me --
what the heck's the deal?!"

Peter listened very patiently
and when Jake was done,
There were smiles of recognition,
and he said, "So, you're the one!!"

"That day your truck, it wouldn't start,
and you sent your prayer a flying,
You gave us all a real bad time,
with hundreds of us trying."

"A thousand angels rushed,
to check the status of your file,
But you know, Jake, we hadn't heard
from you in quite a long while."

"And though all prayers are answered,
and God ain't got no quota,
He didn't recognize your voice,
and started a truck in Minnesota."

870 posted on 04/23/2015 7:32:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: BlueDragon

Ouch!

This'll leave a mark!

871 posted on 04/23/2015 7:33:53 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: BlueDragon
But; since he was merely jabbering away as a mere mortal man; it mattereth not the content of his words.

The church still rolls on...

872 posted on 04/23/2015 7:35:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: rwa265
Elsie, I have stated in several posts that the phrase “mother of God” is not found in Scripture,

You are indeed correct.

But there are so many Catholics in these threads it's kinda hard to keep y'all separated.




If they'd just QUIT using the Unbiblical 'Mother of GOD' every time they pick up their beads...

873 posted on 04/23/2015 7:37:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Yours?


874 posted on 04/23/2015 7:42:12 AM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Elsie

N’er mind: Bill Jones.


875 posted on 04/23/2015 7:44:07 AM PDT by Resettozero
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To: rwa265
Wouldn’t binary 511 be 111111111?

I started hand assembling code on one of these back when you had to use coal oil to illuminate the laboratory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_6800



876 posted on 04/23/2015 7:44:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

I love the 6800!!! I started my programming career doing 6803 assembly language.


877 posted on 04/23/2015 7:45:59 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (God is very intollerant, why shouldn't I be?)
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To: editor-surveyor

But I’m sure you know there is a MAIN one: the place where the entire building is started from.

The coordinate system for laying out land in Utah originates at the cornerstone of the Temple in SLC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downtown_Salt_Lake_City


878 posted on 04/23/2015 7:50:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DungeonMaster
I was a mere repair technician for the Navy when I came across the development kit at a trade show. It was running a clock program.

It was around $300 bucks IIRC. I then realized that you could SIMULATE logic circuits with this thing that would take many, many TTL packages to do the same job.

So, I plunked down the cash, took it home, soldered it up, and punched in the clock code.

"Great!" said the wife. "We now have a $300 dollar digital clock."

It was amazing what could be written using only 256 bytes of RAM!

879 posted on 04/23/2015 7:58:36 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

.
That is incorrect information.

Utah is a “Public Land” state, and its mapping is based on Mount Diablo in central California, as are most of the western states.

Never be a Wikipedophile!

They have far more disinformation than real info, by far.
.


880 posted on 04/23/2015 8:18:00 AM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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