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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: Mark17

Mithras is Roman, Tammuz is the Greek’s version.

A lower case t, tilted slightly to the left was the symbol of both. French cathedrals are speckled with them. Constantine was known for crossing his forearms to make the symbol.
.


801 posted on 04/22/2015 2:45:53 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Iscool
But God doesn't have a physical appearance, except for Jesus, who is God... I love the way that works...

Now you've gone and upset our Mormons on FR; one of whom may castigate you for being disrespectful and/or egregiously insulting.

802 posted on 04/22/2015 2:47:36 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Iscool

He had his son by his side.


803 posted on 04/22/2015 2:47:51 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Elsie
666 AND 777???

How cool is THAT!!!

804 posted on 04/22/2015 2:48:24 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: BlueDragon

What?

No turtles?


805 posted on 04/22/2015 2:49:33 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
What Catholics fail to grasp is that God has the RIGHT to do with men as He sees fit.

Doesn't Rome teach the potter/clay thing in it's catechism classes?

806 posted on 04/22/2015 2:50:52 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor
Bang it around all you wish, but there is nothing in scripture calling for any “Trinity.”

Ignore it all you want; but a dual natured GOD is staring you in the face in Genesis...

Let US create man in OUR image...


807 posted on 04/22/2015 2:52:55 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
.
>> “Where can I read about this FIRST resurrection in the Scriptures?” <<

.
In the gospels of Matthew and John, the first epistle to the Corinthians, and to the Thessalonians, and in the Revelation.

Revelation 20:6 sets it out perfectly as the resurrection before the millennial reign.

“they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”
.

After that comes the Great White Throne when the books get opened, and bad stuff happens to all that are subject thereto.

808 posted on 04/22/2015 2:59:34 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Elsie

Thank you for this very gracious response.


809 posted on 04/22/2015 3:01:19 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Let us commend ourselves and each other, and all our life unto Christ our God." Liturgy of St.John)
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To: Elsie

Binary 511 would be 111111110.


810 posted on 04/22/2015 3:05:33 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

You have always been good to me; even when I poke y’all in the collective eye with a stick.


811 posted on 04/22/2015 3:06:55 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

.
Do you smell the burning sulfur?
.


812 posted on 04/22/2015 3:09:04 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
Binary 511 would be 111111110.

There are 10 kinds of people in the world.

Those that understand binary and those that don't.


You appear to be among the latter.


http://www.binaryhexconverter.com/binary-to-decimal-converter

813 posted on 04/22/2015 3:09:28 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: editor-surveyor

I’m lucky to smell anything today: coughin’ and hackin’ and generally miserable physically.


814 posted on 04/22/2015 3:10:31 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: BlueDragon
Don't tell me Bergoglio did too?

Here's one account.
815 posted on 04/22/2015 3:10:53 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Elsie
It is common knowledge that Joseph Smith invented the computer mouse.

Smart feller, that Joe Smith...

816 posted on 04/22/2015 3:10:59 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: editor-surveyor
In the gospels of Matthew and John, the first epistle to the Corinthians, and to the Thessalonians, and in the Revelation.

Can you make these piles of hay a bit smaller for me?

817 posted on 04/22/2015 3:11:36 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: af_vet_1981; RnMomof7
I for one have a serious problem with Judaism's view of God, based largely on this:
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
(John 5:21-23)
They have indeed rejected the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, if they have rejected God's Messiah.  Jesus' statement above makes it impossible to miss this.

But the problem extends beyond that.  Do a thought experiment with me.  Just for fun. :) What if someone said they believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but they have these magic glasses and these mysteriously inscribed gold plates, and have come to the conclusion that this God is actually a highly evolved form of Adam?  Would you still agree that they worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?  Or have they kept the name only, and displaced the reality?

And then it gets even trickier, because none of us has a perfect idea of God.  So at what point, what threshold would be sufficiently off-base to say, nope, we are no longer talking about the same Being.  Buddhists believe in a version of God too.  But that God is really just a label for everything, i.e., pantheism.  But I have known Christians who didn't realize God knew what they were thinking.  That's defective too, but much less so.  So the question of degree enters into the analysis.

Don't misunderstand me here.  I'm not saying I have a pat answer to the question.  I do think one has to be careful to look at the content behind the label, and not just accept a label because it has been claimed.  On the Judaism question, I would say they are indeed dishonoring the true God, but I probably could not have reached that conclusion without that passage from Jesus to confirm it, because they do have a version of God that is close enough to Christian truth it would be hard to say He is some totally alien deity.

But Islam does not present that problem.  Their deity is not a personal God.  Kismet, fate, the impersonal, unknowable, remote god, more like the eternally distant Gnostic divinity at the end of infinite emanations.  It isn't just the absence of the Trinity that is the problem.  They worship a being that is truly alien to the person revealed in the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures.  It is more purely pasting a false label on their deity, which emerged from their idolatry, their worship of the black rock (an old meteor) in Mecca by bowing down to it from every point on the planet.  That IS their god, the one they worship with their bodies, and it has nothing in common with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, other than their claim of a label.  To say they and we worship the same God is to completely ignore reality.  It is not even a close question.

Peace,

SR
818 posted on 04/22/2015 3:17:04 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Elsie; metmom; daniel1212; boatbums
We also 'get' the FACT that the phrase 'Mother of GOD' is NOT found in Scripture.

Have Catholics been taught they'll lose their salvation if they merely ADMIT this?

Well Mr Elder Statesman, 😄😃😀🙈🙊🙉 when I was a catholic, somewhere in the dateless past, I was told I would lose my salvation if I committed a mortal sin. Being as it was such a long time ago, that it is almost in ancient history, I do not recall specifically, if that was considered s mortal sin, but being as much RCC doctrine (not all) is based on that, I would think possibly it would be included in a long list of mortal sins. Me, on the other hand, I used to try to walk a fine line. I wanted to commit sins, but I only wanted to commit venial sins, so I wouldn't lose my salvation. You know, like I didn't want to commit sins so that I would go blind. I only wanted to commit sins till I needed glasses. 😀😄😃. Later on, I realized the thrill of committing venial sins was gone, and that I needed to commit mortal sins to get the thrill back, but by the time I needed glasses, from all my mortal sins, those wonderful people from the Navigators came along and told me things I had never heard before, like the truth maybe? I had so many unanswered questions, and they were able to answer them all. I guess my upbringing was terribly screwed up, but those nice guys in the Navigators, who were members of the only true church, bless their hearts, but they were able to answer all my unanswered questions, so I became a member of the only true church, the church of the Navigators. 😄😃😀😱😅🙀😎👍😂

819 posted on 04/22/2015 3:20:46 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
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To: editor-surveyor
He had his son by his side.

He had his Son within him...And he within his Son...And they are both called Lord, as well as the Holy Spirit...

2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

820 posted on 04/22/2015 3:21:43 PM PDT by Iscool
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