Posted on 04/01/2015 7:50:45 AM PDT by Salvation
Second, the blatant anti-Catholicism sticks out like a sore thumb. Suggesting books is evangelization. Shoving Scripture down people's throats, posting the same derisive material from thread to thread, is not only proselytizing, but is a negative presentation of faith in general.
While I as a Catholic believe the Catholic Church has the greatest deposit of Faith, there is an amount of truth in all faiths. We don't get most of the mean flak from our mainstream Protestant brethren, (with a few exceptions). The bashing is mostly from ex-Catholics, and independents who interpret the Bible for themselves.
As for salvation outside the Church, people tend to get stuck in the Council of Trent. That was hundreds of years ago. Check out Vatican II:
The Second Vatican Council speaks of salvation outside the Church in Lumen Gentium, nos. 14 and 16. Here are the pertinent sections from those two articles: 14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. [. . .] 16. [. . .] Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.
Defending your beliefs is one thing, but check out some of the posts on the site. I recently got called a troll! I consider the source, but honestly, we aren't kids on a playground; we just act that way sometimes- just about all of us. We, myself included, need to lighten up sometimes- but it's hard when people deride what you love most in the world, and the only thing that's worth living for in an otherwise horrific world.
God bless you, and may we all meet in Heaven!
If one chooses to leave a denomination, that's part of their journey. Sometimes that leads them to several different belief systems. Each one, as part of life's journey, makes a person who they are in the present.
When one slings mud, they themselves cannot help but be soiled. It's best to live in peace and enjoy the present.
G2G .."slinging " the scriptures is not slinging "mud"
It is always my hope that what I post brings people to examine the scriptures to see if what I post is true..
Many years ago a retreat gave me a small NT .. I had never owned or read one.. reading it brought me to ask why did Jesus come ??? That question brought me to my knees for the first time understanding the true Holiness of God.. and my sinfulness
Like you I loved my church, I loved the ritual , and the feeling of sacredness.. But over the next couple of years , as I read and studied ..more and more I saw that things I had been taught, things I had believed because they had been taught to me by the church , did not line up with the scripture ... Almost every Sunday I would be struck with the thought that I did not believe this or that anymore
So finally I left.. this was not without personal cost G2G ..My family was Catholic, my neighbors were Catholic, my "friends" were Catholic..and I had to leave many "ministries" I loved ... but I could no longer say Amen to the Roman church
So when I post here, it is with full understanding of how "loved" Rome can be... but I also know that we were never called to love a church, we are called to repent and believe in Christ..
Careful. You're treading on an error condemned by Pope Pius IX in 1863:
Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
Catholicism was once part of your life, and it is part of what made you who you are today. You can speak your truth without putting ours down. You're older, more mature than back then: do you ever feel as if you have put more into your journey away from the Church, than you did within the Church when you were younger? My time away came because people were promulgating "the spirit of Vatican II" and we had no way of finding out what actually was said. I was brought up in a school and parish and family where the rubrics, Sacred Tradition, and Scripture went hand in hand with the Magisterium. Then I hit high school and the Magisterium and Scripture, as well as tradition, were being contradicted. Every day, my poor dear Homeroom teacher, with whom I've remained in contact all these years, listened to me vent about the daily head-to-head we had. I fought like a banshee for Scripture and Church teaching! She said, Adam and Eve was just a fable and that Baptism was a ritual we went through "to please the old people" Pardon me for a moment:
AAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH! Thanks, I needed that!
I was a rebel, at least where that was concerned. On my tests I would write: "What ##### Teaches", then "What the Church Teaches" underneath! it was the only way I could pass without compromising my Faith, through which my Scripture was interpreted. My parents spoke to our Pastor, and he investigated. I found out years later, she blackballed me from the Honor Society- "Argumentive" lol! I came back after too long of awhile, see my homepage if you like, but committed myself to learning what I knew was the Truth for me. I'm older, was injured, and my health deteriorated, so I'm not quite the apologist I became, especially after computers and online documents. I can't call things quickly to mind as I used to, but what I believe is written in my heart. I would so rather be insulted than endure some of the below-the-belt derision here of what i love the most. It hurts when it isn't discussion.
I know a lot of ex Catholics who left because of the marriage laws, among other things. Many are bitter towards the Church. I am sincerely sorry, because I gleaned from your posts that you were bitter toward us. I was angry because you know how much the Faith can mean to a Catholic. When I spoke of the mud, i meant that derision of the Church was, in a way, a derision of yourself, because you once were part of It. I thank you for opening up as you did! It helped my understanding, and that was the reason I joined FR in the first place. Thank you for listening, as well as all you, gentle readers. Sorry I took so long, but I feel I must try to be a little less judgemental. Again, please forgive me. And for any of you reading still, please keep me in prayer if that request does not offend you.
God bless you! Grateful
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
That was the 1860’s as you said. Post 141 from Vatican II might help, especially the second paragraph. The first more concerns the Faith to be spread among the Catholic community. God’s home has many mansions! Hope it helps; it’s an excerpt, but says a lot.
God bless you!
Are you trying to tell me that because it was Catholic teaching in 1860 it is no longer applicable?
No not at all bitter.. just one bigger trying to tell other beggars where to find bread..
The wisdom of the Council stated it as written. I’ve not read either document entirely. This is how it stands today. Perhaps it has to do with the world”getting smaller”by travel and mass communication: not to mention a Civil War in America; 2 World Wars; Korea; the Cold war. A lot of people of Good will were killed, of all races, colors creeds, and ages... Maybe that’s why. Just a guess.
Thanks to the modernism that has creeped into the Church via Vatican II (and is now full steam ahead), most Catholics seem to think that we can hope that these non-Catholics will be saved. No, we can not.
I know I’m treading a fine line. I’ve gotta be able to sleep at night.
I know it’s a hard truth especially for those of us who have family members outside of the Catholic Church.
Nothing in there about ANTICHRIST
Luther pays me.
Surely you remember the guy that called your chosen religion on the carpet; right?
Or you didn't recognize it as such. It's the anti Christ who signs the peace treaty and who 3 1/2 years later sets himself up in the temple.
“This issue is resolved.” Applied only to me based upon the struggle I was having.
What my experience and struggle is presented only as testimony, NOT as church doctrine or dogma.
Certainly, but not making statement as if they were a seasoned active veteran, which they would be in order for your judgement to have validity.
Second, the blatant anti-Catholicism sticks out like a sore thumb. Suggesting books is evangelization. Shoving Scripture down people's throats, posting the same derisive material from thread to thread, is not only proselytizing, but is a negative presentation of faith in general.
I would like to see what shoving Scripture down people's throats means, but then may i asked, where or where have You been when RCs did this for years, and note that shoving Scripture down people's throats has its parrellel with constant posting of RC propaganda, engaging in argument by assertion, which they seem to demand we submit to.
Here is just a sample of what you must have missed.
There Is No Salvation Outside The Catholic Church (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus)
Divinum Officium: Whoever does not embrace the Catholic Christian religion will be damned
Why Catholicism Is Preferable to Protestantism
The Protestant's Dilemma: A Review
Protecting God’s Word From “Bible Christians”
Why do Protestant lay people hate clergy?
Protestants: It's time to come back
From Fundamentalist Baptist to Catholic
EWTN - The Journey Home - November 10, 2014 - Dale Ahlquist, convert from being a Baptist
The Trouble With Calvin – Pt. 1
Why would anyone become Catholic?
In Defense of the Immaculate Conception: Part 2
The Nature of the Mass and the need for Sacrifice
The Hail Mary of a Protestant
500 Years of Chaos: Protestantism’s Anniversary
And which is just a few, plus multitudes of pro RC polemics for herself that invite and incite debate.
But all RCs see is what reproves Rome's errors and elitism, and whine about what exposes her. Which is what their posting has resulted in, as can be shown, by God's grace.
And when we brought up the issue of the plethora of papist postings, i was told we should post our own, so now that has happened more yet RCs still complain.
You simply lack standing in this debate as you do not represent the regular RCs with whom we have debated here for years. And when some of them are silenced by correction, they either post more of the same, and or a lurker or new poster shows up and so it must be done again.
We don't get most of the mean flak from our mainstream Protestant brethren, (with a few exceptions).
That is because they do not contend for much, likewise it is not the liberal RCs that most strongly debate within your church, but the SSPX and SSPV RCs, and whose vituperative criticism can sometimes even make us look mild. The reality is that the more committed one to doctrine, then they stronger the unity is within their group, but likewise they are the most divisive, which is actually necessary when their is real compromise going on, though that is contrary to the Roman system on paper. .
Meanwhile, what we get, even much this week, is mainstream Protestantism thrown in our face as representing where SS leads to, thus invalidating the Reformation, which is actually an argument for the Reformation, since the mainstream/liberal Prots are those which deviate from the Reformers esteem and place of Scripture, and instead they tend to be closest to Catholicism.
The bashing is mostly from ex-Catholics, and independents who interpret the Bible for themselves.
Who are overall surprisingly (to RCs) basically unified, while Jews in the 1st century could have said much the same as you did about the followers of a group of itinerant preachers who followed a giant of an itinerant preacher, all of whom were rejected by the historical magisterium, whom they rebuked.
Obviously our preachers are not the apostles, nor are yours for sure, but we can show by the Scriptures what they taught, which the established upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power.
As for salvation outside the Church, people tend to get stuck in the Council of Trent. That was hundreds of years ago. Check out Vatican II:
Which i myself have posted, as again, you simply do not represent the regular RCs with whom we havw debated here for years. And who are not the kind that calls us "brethren," but say such nice things as,
thanking God the Spanish Inquisition was up to the job,
that Protestantism is belief in one’s self, and
absolutely alien to Christianity, and that,
Protestants are mostly biblically illiterate,
intellectually dishonest,
evil fruit, who
don’t have the Holy Spirit, and
are not part of the Body of Christ, and
who have no foundation for their understanding of Christianity, and
will not be saved unless they becomes a member of the Catholic Church ( which is how they interpret Lumen Gentium), and
are by inclination vandals who should be eradicated from the face of the earth,
But that Catholics never put down or challenge beliefs from protestants, and that,
there never has been a bit of anti-protestant bigotry on FR, etc.
These are all taken from actual statements i have.
I recently got called a troll!
I understand, but it kind of like a stateside soldier lecturing those in combat that they need to be more respectful toward those who are shooting at them, and seem to long for the days of the Inquisition.
Certainly, but not making statement as if they were a seasoned active veteran, which they would be in order for your judgement to have validity.
Excuse me, but I was judging no one! But if someone is new, they deserve patience from those who have been around awhile, not to be treated as if they are unwelcome. St. Paul is easily the most frequently quoted writer here. Did he not say, when I was a child, I spake as a child? Did Jesus not say to let the children come to Him? Shouldn't we welcome new people? God led them here for a reason; let's have patience, as once someone may have had when each of us here started.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.