Posted on 03/26/2015 5:03:18 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Maybe they were a LOT older, had families of their own, and traveled separately.
Some sure do!
Perhaps; but you could NOT bring yourself to type INACCURATE; could you.
You misunderstand.
That 'insult' was toward ROME's Mary - Not Jesus' mother.
I'll let the MOD decide.
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
When the bible says someones fate is eternal, it means it will not change. those that go on to eternal LIFE will be alive eternally. Those that go on to eternal destruction, death and perish, will in fact perish and their state will also be eternal. They are not coming back.
But I keep repeating myself in these threads. Just google eternal suffering vs annihilation. The argument is made ad-nausium all over the internet. Read the volumes posted by each side and be free to make up your own mind. No need for me to do anything other than link to those as the need arises. e.g. someone brings up Lazarus and the rich man in these discussions. I have several sites I simply link to that effectively explain what it is REALLY about. And it ain’t eternity.
Exactly as the bible says. It takes so much effort to work around that little word "until".
You are not arguing what the word of God says. You are arguing with your interpretation of it. Look at the full context. Look at the root greek. I’ve gotten in trouble hanging on a certain precise interpretation of a specific verse. The message here can also be interpreted, the bigger they are, the harder they fall.
The verse is not about how long people will be judged, but that they will be judged. But even more importantly, when you add up the context of the whole bible and gain knowledge of the personality of God and how he deals with those that violate His instruction coupled with his Love of His creation, the harder it is to accept the “eternal, conscious suffering” meme.
Elsie, I should point out that as I debated this with people over the last couple of years (I came to this believe four years ago) and listen to my bible on my 3 hour daily commute, I started listening for any scripture, no matter how mundane or only slightly touching on this issue to see where the “general assumption of the fate of the lost” is presented (almost casually) in the bible.
It is EVERYWHERE. It is a theme almost as constant as the salvation theme. And it has absolutely solidified my position on the fate of the lost. It’s completely changed how I approach the lost.
It is much easier to take the “Tell them and let the seed either sprout or die” approach rather than feel that you must intellectually convince them at all costs. It is much easier to understand Paul’s words in Romans about Pharoh and his apparent “lack of free will” regarding his fate. When I started understanding the implications of the annihilation position, suddenly many stubborn questions about scripture were easily answered.
And that was another “beginning of wisdom” moment for me.
Oh?
The argument is made ad-nausium all over the internet.
I'll just read the Book and deal with what IT has to say.
If I can NOT rely on what the ENGLISH says; then a lot more than me are in big trouble.
It seems folks have ALWAYS found things that Jesus said 'hard to accept'.
Matthew 19:11
But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given.
Elsie. You post a scripture or two. I get that. But I’m talking about the WHOLE bible. The misinterpretation of scripture is done by everyone. Nobody has full knowledge.
I was arguing this very point with a gentleman in my church in KY and he finally got all red faced and held up his big KJV bible and said, “I believe what the bible says!” To which I said, “So do I. Where we differ is in our interpretation of it.”
I was then talking to a music director of a large church in Louisville about my frustrations in dealing with Christians that disagree with me on some issues. I was telling him that I’m trying to point out that neither of us can be absolutely sure about it yet the folks I try to debate with hava a “get thee behind me Satan” attitude if I disagree with them. And many of them really don’t know the bible all that well.
What he said was interesting. He said that a fair number of the members of his church (fairly large) were professors at a local Christian college. You’ll find that they are never “absolutely sure” about many of the teachings from the bible. Teachings like the fate of the lost, the rapture, stuff like that. He went on to say that he’s noticed that regarding many of those issues, the more sure of their position a person is, the less they know about the subject.
It’s kinda like arguing evolution and Global warming. The people doing the REAL science tend to avoid the confrontational stuff and admit that we have a lot to learn. It is the “lay people” like Al Gore, et al that argue the “science is settled”.
To quote from the article I posted, this is how I look at it (and why I posted the specific article I did even though there are actually far more scholarly ones that amplify his position):
Support can be found through the Holy Scriptures to back up the case for eternal torture as well as the case for annihilation in Hell. In coming to a conclusion, therefore, one must take this to heart and study all of God’s Word to find which model fits best with the overall thrust of Scripture. From my study of the Bible, it seems to say much more about the death of the wicked than about their torture. Numerous verses use the terminology of life and immortality only when depicting Heaven while reserving words such as death, perishing, and destruction to describe Hell. Furthermore, there is not even one verse in the entire Bible that teaches the supposed “immortality of the soul” doctrine so prevalent in most Christian theology. Instead, it is made very clear that only God has eternal life, and He bestows immortality only to those whom He chooses—not to everyone. In reading the Bible for its plain meaning, there is no reason to feel obligated to believe that human beings will be kept alive in a never-ending, torturous Hell.
If I can NOT rely on what the ENGLISH says; then a lot more than me are in big trouble.
I discussed this issue with a VERY intelligent theology student once regarding the bible. I asked her how one could really be sure of the meaning of all the scriptures in the bible. She paused for quite a while and finally said, that one would have to be very fluent in the original languages and the popular meaning of all the words within the context of the state of the original language at the time the words were penned. (I paraphrase).
IOW, Prayer matters when one reads the word. Regarding what the bible teaches, I fall back on Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
But the bible alone is not enough. And Jesus WITHOUT* the bible IS enough.
*Many have heard the gospel and followed Christ into eternity without ever reading or seeing a bible, but nobody has received eternal life without a relationship with Christ. The relationship trumps the bible, but it is better to have both.
Sorry, Elsie. This time you are taking out of context. If somone taught me that to accept Christ would mean I would be required to cut off the heads of my mother and father, I would say that is “hard to accept”. The person would then quote Matthew 19:11 to prove the “error” of my thinking.
It applies where it applies and doesn’t apply where it doesn’t apply.
If I can NOT rely on what the ENGLISH says; then a lot more than me are in big trouble.
He was using as an anaology a certain garbage dump. And things would get partially burned (but not destroyed) or partially decompose (via worms) but not fully consumed. He was using the “worm never die” analogy to point out that the “garbage dump” or “fire” where the lost are thrown will, in fact, utterly destroy them. It will do its job. They will be no more.
That is just one example of the interpretation thing that can be twisted depending on the person’s bias. And I was strongly biased in the opposite direction before I was motivated to study the issue thanks to this thread several years ago (and yes, it is based on the article I already posted): http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2240648/posts
Before I happened onto that thread, I was an advocate of the eternal suffering interpretation, though I’d never really studied it. I just assumed it was the correct interpretation because everybody agreed. I thought.
Of course He had bothers and sisters. Catholics simply deny or change the words of scripture to fit their cultish beliefs.
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