Posted on 03/24/2015 3:57:42 PM PDT by NYer
Q: I was talking with an Evangelical co-worker and he said the Bible teaches that once we are “saved,” we can never lose our salvation. Is that true?
A: Absolutely not. In fact, the Bible is full of passages that either directly or indirectly contradict this doctrine of “Once Saved, Always Saved.” For example:
Romans 11:17-23, “But if some of the branches were broken off [the Jews], and you, a wild olive shoot [the Gentiles], were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree [Jesus Christ], do not boast over the branches...For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you...Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.”
Paul is talking about how salvation has come to the Gentiles, while many of the Jews have rejected it. And he makes it very clear that once you have been grafted into Christ, you must “continue in His kindness,” or you can also be cut off. So, even after you’ve been saved, you can still be cut off from Jesus Christ.
This is further seen in Galatians 5:1, “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery [sin].”
If once saved always saved is true, then one cannot “submit again” to a “yoke of slavery,” and Paul’s warning makes no sense.
But Paul goes on in verse 4 to say, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” Paul is talking to Gentile Christians who had been wrongly taught by the Judaizers that they have to be circumcised and obey the Mosaic Law in order to be true Christians. Paul tells them that is false, and if they submit to circumcision and to the Old Law, they will be “severed from Christ.” If once saved always saved is true, though, they can’t be severed from Christ and, once again, Paul’s warning is meaningless.
We also have the Parable of the Prodigal Son, Luke, chapter 15. The Prodigal Son was in his father’s house, and the father here is representative of God the Father. Then, the Prodigal Son leaves his father’s house and goes and lives a sinful life. In the end, though, he repents and returns to his father. After the Prodigal Son returns, the father says this of him in verse 24: “For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.”
In Evangelical terminology, to be dead is to be unsaved, and to be alive is to be saved. Notice very carefully, though, that the father says the son is alive “again.” In other words, the son was alive, or saved, when he was in his father’s house at the beginning of the parable; was “dead,” or unsaved, when he left his father’s house and lived in sin; then was alive again, saved again, when he repented and returned to his father’s house. Alive, dead, alive again. Saved, unsaved, saved again.
Once saved always saved? I don’t think so.
What is a believer, an intellectual believer like Satan and his demons? Or a true believer in the Hebrew disciple tradition, walking as his master walked, and doing his every commandment?
In this context we are talking about the person who is a true believer.
Nobody is saved until the day of Trumpets; that is what Yeshua and his apostles told us.
No. When a person becomes a Christian they are filled with the Holy Spirit who seals the believer (Eph 1:13-14). That is immediate and everlasting. There are no passages in the NT that ever indicate the Holy Spirit ever leaves a believer nor is the believer ever noted to be unsealed. Their sins are forgiven and covered (Col 2:13-14, Rom 4:7-8) The person's eternal security is secure at that point. John 3:15-18 make this clear.
It's what the word of God says in numerous places.
But 2Peter chapter two says it best.
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If, eternal security is guaranteed through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross, then the entire world is saved, no matter what any body does or believes.
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1] Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[2] Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[3] And this will we do, if God permit.
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
[7] For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
[8] But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
This is what you posted from Hebrews.
If you believe this, which I've asked you if you do and you refuse to answer, then it teaches that once you lose your salvation, there are no second chances.
I'll ask you again....is this what YOU believe. You posted it so you have to answer.
Really??
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Then Yeshua, Paul and Peter are wrong?
Yeshua:
Matthew 24:13 “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."
Paul:
Hebrews 10:26 "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"
Peter:
2Peter 2:
[1] But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
[2] And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
[3] And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
[4] For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
[5] And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
[6] And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
[7] And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
[8] (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
[9] The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
[10] But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
[11] Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
[12] But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
[13] And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
[14] Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
[15] Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
[16] But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
[17] These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
[18] For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
[19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
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Your argument is not with me, it is with the plain word of God.
(BTW, I do believe the word of God, so quit asking.)
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I'm not in the mood to debate with anyone who posts this line of thinking.
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Is it guaranteed, or Not?
(Its not!)
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You are rejecting the Word in Ephesians when it says the believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit. You are rejecting what Jesus said in John 5:24
Truly, truly I say to you, he who hears my Word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
If you are relying upon works, as you admit you must be if the death of Christ is insufficient for your sins, then I ask:
How many of these good works do you have to do?
How do you know you've done the right ones?
How do you know you did them correctly?
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Your comment is nonsense.
Yeshua didn’t die to save anyone that doesn’t endure to the end.
He never said there was any guarantee.
His apostles all were in full agreement; they all said that you must endure in full faith to the end.
Where do you think the “second chance” is hiding?
Give us a scripture reference.
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Nope...you answer my questions on how we can be saved if not through the shed blood of Christ.
It's so typical of those who deny the sufficiency of the cross and faith to keep the believer secure, that when asked what good works they must do they run away and hide.
That you will not or cannot answer my questions is telling.
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>> “Nope...you answer my questions on how we can be saved if not through the shed blood of Christ.” <<
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Foolish strawman question!
I didn’t say that we are not saved by the shed blood of Yeshua.
I said the there is no guarantee. You must endure to the end; there is no other way. No second chances.
It is you that are denying the cross by not accepting the plain word of God.
Its not a roll your own derby; its his way or oblivion.
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Jesus’s view was that we have to admit we are sinners and accept him as our savior. It’s just that simple.
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Oh?
Whatever happened to repent and sin no more?
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Show me one person who is without sin?
We can’t earn salvation. All we can do is accept it. From then on its a journey to become closer to God.
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You’re wasting your time trying to argue with me, its the scriptures that you need to defeat.
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How do you know when you've lost your salvation?
Not arguing with you. The scripture says what it says. You’re twisting it to mean what you want it to mean.
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That is a ridiculous assertion.
I posted the whole chapter, and it is clearly written.
I’m confident that you know where the real twisting is going on.
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