Posted on 03/13/2015 7:43:01 AM PDT by amessenger4god
Will there be a rapture? Is it pre-tribulational? I believe the answer is an emphatic 'yes' to both questions. Here are some key points:
1. For starters, I want to address the small, but growing minority of Christians who emphatically state that the rapture isn't even in the Bible. Now I believe it is one thing to hold to various views as to the timing of the rapture event, but no rapture at all? I believe that this belief is thoroughly nonsensical. The argument often takes shape the same way that Jehovah's Witnesses will say that the Bible doesn't teach the doctrine of the "Trinity" since the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible... yet the doctrine of the Trinity is found all throughout the Bible, from Genesis 1:1-3 to Revelation. The word "rapture" is not in the Bible, end-of-story.
This argument doesn't even make sense--of course the English word "rapture" is not in the Bible. So too the Latin word that we derive "rapture" from is also not in the Bible. The New Testament was written in Greek! The Greek word for "rapture" is in the Bible. Even setting aside all other scriptures, parables, patterns, and parallels that may support the rapture, the rapture event is clearly and unequivocally taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. This passage doesn't necessarily answer the question as to the timing of the event, but yes, the rapture is going to happen. A trumpet will sound and the dead in Christ and those who are "alive and remain" will be "caught up" into the clouds. It plainly, unequivocally says believers will meet the Lord in the air.
2. Next, I want to talk about perhaps the most common argument against the pre-tribulational rapture. This argument is now known to be factually incorrect. So if you believe in a mid-trib, pre-wrath, or post-trib rapture, that's fine by me, but don't use this argument. The argument is that the pre-tribulational rapture theory was invented by a girl in 19th century Scotland named Margaret MacDonald. This is patently false. For starters, 18 years prior to MacDonald, a Catholic Jesuit priest espoused his belief in the pre-trib rapture in his book The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty. We now also have clear, extra-Biblical support for the pre-trib rapture as early as 373AD (Ephraem the Syrian who clearly taught the doctrine, even using exact language). See here: http://www.raptureready.com/rr-margaret-mcdonald.html and here: http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/why_some_reject.htm
3. Thirdly, many Christians will often argue that the pre-tribulational rapture is not foreshadowed in the Bible and that the doctrine is just "easy-escapism". In essence they will say that God doesn't remove us from trials and tribulation, He just protects us in the midst of it.
I actually agree with their point about God protecting us in the midst of tribulation. However, this has nothing to do with the pre-tribulational rapture, which I believe is CLEARLY foreshadowed. The 70th week of Daniel (final 7 years of the age), are the years specifically set aside for God to pour out His OWN wrath. Not just the normal trials and tribulations every generation has faced because of the consequences of sin, but a tribulation God Himself sends on the world, as the Scripture says to test an unbelieving and unrepentant world (Revelation 3:10; see also Luke 21:36). That same passage says clearly says that God will keep believers from facing that coming tribulation. Elsewhere the Bible says "we are not appointed unto wrath" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).
So, yes, it is correct to say God doesn't always remove us from worldy tribulation, but He does ALWAYS remove us from His wrath if we trust in Him. This is foreshadowed:
All right, CBear, you don’t want me to deal with it, so be it. It would have taken a lot more of the typing you don’t like. I have to go to town anyway. Have a good day. God bless.
That's not the issue at all. Before you go any further you need to address the problem mid trib and post trib has with not knowing the day or the hour. As I showed you, once the peace treaty is signed the exact days are spelled out to mid trib and post trib. We will know exactly to the day when those will be. The statement by Jesus "no one knows the day or the hour" cannot be referencing either of those.
You left out the major event...
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
The Wedding of the Bride and Bridegroom takes place during the Tribulation...
The church gets raptured, God all but demolishes the Earth while the Wedding takes place in heaven...Jesus returns at the 2nd Coming with his Bride...
Granted, a pretrib rapture would be a good point for Christ to come get the saints, turn around, go back to heaven, and have the marriage of the Lamb for seven years.
However, as per the verses you posted, Rev. 19:7-9, the marriage is in a post-trib setting. The marriage of the Lamb comes, vss 7, in the midst of exultation over the great whore getting judged, and the blood of God’s servants being avenged, vss 1-3. Certainly not a pre-trib setting.
Not to mention the absence of a definitive statement anywhere in the NT, defining a two-stage, or two parousias end time outline...as I tried to bring out in my last few posts. We have a lot of inferences around to be sure, including this one about the marriage of the Lamb, but no scripture that actually spells out two-stage, two parousias.
In the ancient marriage customs the marriage supper was AFTER the seven days the bride and groom were sequestered. It was AFTER that seven days that all the quests were invited to the wedding feast.
That passage means just what it says, no man knows the day and the hour. “The times and the seasons,” yes, 2 Thess. 2:1, but not the day and the hour.
But the day and hour of what? is the question. The day and hour of the first parousia in a two parousia sequence? When, as per my posts on this thread, there are no such thing as two parousias defined for us anywhere in scripture? When there is no other parousia in Matt. 24 but the one in vss 29-31?
The day and hour, then, has to be referring to THAT parousia, the one in vss 29-31, the only one in the discourse.
Yes, I know the line of argument pretribs use, we are supposedly going to know right down to the day, and maybe even the hour, when the second parousia of the two parousia’s takes place. Jesus says otherwise.
Other than the clear statement of Jesus, I don’t think the post-trib parousia will be known down to the day and hour because it will not be as easy as pretribs think to nail down to the day and hour the precise starting point. The ending day and hour is only as precise as its beginning days and hour.
The whole pretrib argument of the day and hour is amiss, in my view, simply because the entire olivet discourse, from vss 3 onward, is about the singular parousia, the disciples question answered in vss 29-31. A supposed pretrib one is nowhere in view.
Not to mention the absence of a definitive statement anywhere in scripture setting forth two parousia’s, or two-stage, whatever you want to call it.
This old former pretribber sees ONE parousia everywhere. Try reading the Bible without the aid of the two parousia theory. You’ll be amazed.
Appears to be chronological to me...However...The Tribulation takes place with God's wrath being dished out on the earth...Wedding takes place...Jesus along with the Bride return to earth for the battle of Armageddon...
Unless there's a gap which I don't see in between the end of the wrath and the battle of Armageddon...I see the wedding as taking place during the wrath happening...
On Jewish wedding customs, lest you ding me about too much typing, I insert here somebody’s else’s take on it, a post-trib pastor. Sorry, he does even more typing than me!
http://answersinrevelation.org/wedding.pdf
See the link I posted to CynicalBear.
The marriage supper occurs AFTER the tribulation, on earth, not in hea ven.
Isaiah 24:23 indicates the timing of this event, re ferring to the cosmic signs that accompany Christ's coming "Immediately after the tribulation," (Matt. 24:29), and His reigning in His Kingdom. Isaiah 25:2 refers to the saints rejoicing over the destruction of Babylon the Great, just as in Revelation. Verse 6 i ndicates that the Lord will prepare a great feast for His people ON MT. ZION in Israel. This is the marriage supper anticipated in Rev. 19, and it occurs immediately f ollowing the second coming, where Christ fetches His bride
Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
Rev 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
Rev 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
John is in heaven writing this stuff down...Every bit of this takes place in heaven...And after the wedding???
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
So your version of the Rapture goes like this:
The Tribulation takes place while the church is on earth...
The Tribulation ends...
Jesus comes for his betrothed...
The church (the betrothed) rise up to meet Jesus in the air...
Jesus and the church circle back to the earth (they don't make it back to heaven)...
Jesus and the church get married on earth, in Jerusalem while there are hundreds of millions of Jesus' enemies camped around Jerusalem...
So after the wedding on earth, Jesus and the church go back up to heaven...
Jesus climbs on a white horse and he along with the church head back to earth to fight the battle of Armageddon...
Naw, I can't buy that scenario...John is in heaven...He sees the wedding taking place in heaven...There will no gap in time between the end of the Tribulation and the return of Jesus to fight the battle of Armageddon...
This gets us into how one views Revelation, and a lot of other prophetic material, the prophets, for instance. Time wise, it seems you have a very rigid view. Time wise, I see some of the stuff in Revelation as kaleidoscopic, some of it proleptic. The seals, trumpets, and vials, for instance. A rigid view would see them as 21 events happening one after another in time. Does the day of the Lord take place as the sixth event (the sixth seal) of the 21?
The article at the link has the marriage of the Lamb taking place, time wise, after Armageddon. He sees it in the setting you see in Isaiah 25, a picture of rejoicing and feasting, after Armageddon, after the cosmic calamities of the day of the Lord. He sees the marriage supper of the Lamb fitting into that picture. So do I.
We are talking apocalyptic stuff here (Revelation). Its not like reading something coming from the hand of man.
Maybe not a good enough answer for you, but its the best I can do.
The Great Surrender to Satan and Evacuation by Golden Huey
Forget all that stuff in the Bible about Jesus Christ being victorious and defeating Satan.
The real scoop is that Christ will surrender to Satan and evacuate Americans who believe their works and behavior don't matter from the roofs of rock n' roll churches, survivalist bunkers, tattoo parlors, strip joints, whore houses, and meth labs, using Huey helicopters made of pure gold.
That puts everyone who enters the Millennial Kingdom into the Christian (the Bride) camp, right??? With spiritual bodies who will reign with Jesus...But reign over whom???
No, that is NOT the question. Jesus was answering a question by the apostles.
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end of the world?
>>The day and hour of the first parousia in a two parousia sequence?<<
It's interesting that you switched from "coming" to the Greek word "parousia". Let's look at the meaning of that word.
Greek - παρουσίας - parousia - 3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation. [http://biblehub.com/greek/3952.htm]
[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]
>>When, as per my posts on this thread, there are no such thing as two parousias defined for us anywhere in scripture?<<
Of course there is. There is His parousia for the true believers, those who are the bride of Christ, and then there is the one at the end of the tribulation where He defeats the armies of Satan and sets up the 1000 year reign. Please show the scripture passage that shows there is only one parousia to come.
>>I don’t think the post-trib parousia will be known down to the day and hour because it will not be as easy as pretribs think to nail down to the day and hour the precise starting point.<<
Then please tell me the reason Daniel was given the specific number of days.
>>The whole pretrib argument of the day and hour is amiss, in my view, simply because the entire olivet discourse, from vss 3 onward, is about the singular parousia<<
Who says so? If you believe that the ekklesia of Christ will go through the tribulation then how do you dismiss the fact that we are told we will be kept from the wrath?
1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
And don't try the "He will keep us safe through it" line because in the verse above it says "which shall come upon all the world and them that dwell upon the earth.
There is no scripture that "spells out" that there will only be one.
And I read it in it's entirety. The poor man did a lousy of research. There are so many errors it would take more space then we have here to address them all. I'll just reference you to this research with documented evidence both from scripture and The Jewish Encyclopedia.
http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/jewish_marriage_customs.htm
An online searchable copy of the Jewish Encyclopedia can be found here.
This statement which should be of interest:
"The bride had to remain in the ḥuppah for seven days, as long as the wedding festivities lasted (Judges xiv. 15); hence the name of these festivities, "the seven days of her" or "of the ḥuppah" (Pesiḳ. 149b)."
can be found at http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7941-huppah
For over 50 years now my goal has been to find the real truth and not to simply substantiate a pre conceived or previously learned idea.
>>Try reading the Bible without the aid of the two parousia theory.<<
You make the assumption I haven't? On what basis of clairvoyance do you make this presumption? In the last 50 years I have investigated every claim and supposition those who deny the pre trib rapture have come up with. You're not presenting anything new to me.
Being whole scale slaughtered is a great tribulation. But being in tribulation is not Gods wrath. The entire Rapture fiasco hinges exactly on the issue you commented on, the mistranslation of the greek term translated elsewhere in the Bible as the term Gods Wrath, yet translated in the english version in the book of revelation as tribulation.
There is no pre trib rapture, there is only a pre wrath rapture. The entire heresy hinges on one single mistranlation and a bucket of speculations.
Once that misunderstanding is rectified, a plain text reading of Rev 5-7 spells out the timing of the rapture that coincides perfectly with mathew 24 luke, etc.
has come, and who can withstand it?”
God's wrath began with the opening of the first seal.
Revelation 6:17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?"
How about God’s wrath begins with the opening of The Seventh Seal?
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