Posted on 02/22/2015 9:25:03 PM PST by Phinneous
A video class (in English y'all) about the history of "Amalek" and a seemingly superfluous verse in the Scroll of Esther.
In short (if you don't have 48 minutes to listen to a fascinating class)
-The nation of Amalek in the Bible is the modern nation of Germany (the Rabbi lists Jewish Rabbinical sources stating it will be such-- even before the Midevil kingdoms of Germany emerged)
-Esther asks King Achashverosh to (Es 9:13) Then said Esther, If it please the king, let it be granted to the Jews which are in Shushan to do to morrow also according unto this day's decree, and let Haman's ten sons be hanged upon the gallows.
If they just killed the ten sons that day... who was she asking to kill on the morrow??!
-The rabbi goes on to describe unmistakable prophesy in the Scroll of Esther pointing to the German officers hanged at Nuremberg as being the sons to be hanged on the morrow... 2300 years later.
re: “It is 100% stock-and-trade Orthodox Judaism that Amalek (not necessarily ancient Persians...those who conquered Babylon) develops into, in part, Germany”
Interesting, because I’ve also read that “Armenians” and “Palestinians” have also been considered descendants of Amalek by other Jewish traditions. And, in addition, there have been some rabbinical views that all enemies of Israel, who seek its annihilation, are seen as “types” of Amalek and Haman. I find it difficult to believe that all “100% Orthodox” Jews hold your view.
As to the “sizes, shapes, crowns, etc.” of the Hebrew manuscript, I completely understand the absolute respect the ancient scribes and priests held for the text and would destroy any hand written copy if one mistake was discovered. However, what you are describing, sounds like “conjuring” or even “divination” in the use of the Holy Word of G_d. I do not know of any passage in the Hebrew scriptures where it is taught to ascribe meaning to sizes, shapes, crowns, or to derive that the names of letters are “loaded with infinite meaning” - unless G_d directly commands us to do such a thing.
I do understand that the Hebrew letters have numerical values and that there are apocalyptic meanings given to some numbers - but, other than that, I don’t see what you are describing as ever practiced by Moses or the Prophets.
Bingo.
Traditional rabbis held that Amalek couldn’t be identified exactly since ‘Senachariv mixed them [populations] up’.
Amalek is the name for those governed by the ‘Angel’ of Esau.
Step back.... your sources are correct. There are many descendants of Amalek, Germany inclusive. (not to the exclusion of others.) Sort of included in how I phrased it originally.
The entire Oral Law (”Rabbinic Judaism” if you will...and it sounds like you would ;) ) the entire Oral Law given to Moses, by G-d, and transmitted to Joshua and the elders in tact, and held by only the Jews to this very day... is ripe with gematria (the study of the numerical value of the letters.) In Exodus 35:1, the Hebrew numerical values of the words “...These are the things...” equals 39... the source of our 39 forbidden types of work on the Sabbath, according to the Oral Law. A primer:
http://thetorah.com/the-code-40-minus-1-melachot-shabbat/
We can spin off into a discussion of the necessity of an Oral Law.... well... we could... but not now.
Phinneous
Purim Insights - פורים
By Rabbi Dr. Hillel ben David (Greg Killian)
Hints To Something Deeper
In the last sect we learned that according to our Sages, every time King Achashverosh is mentioned by name, in the book of Esther, it refers to Achashverosh. Every time the text merely says, the King, it refers to HaShem.
http://www.betemunah.org/purim.html
HaShem dictated that the Amalekites should all be destroyed. Including the ones on this thread.
http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/Imposter.htm
At the page behind the link above, run the following keywords in a browser find:
Greg Killian
About the Netzarim
(Apparently Jewish, not Chrstian)
http://www.netzarim.co.il/Shared/About.htm
Hellenized Alexandrian Judaism was an aberration and disappeared from history.
So much for the Catholic claim that Protestants are "brain-dead Bibliolators." You're obviously not comfortable with knowledge confined to the original and authentic text that is inaccessible in translation because this doesn't meet the "humble milkmaid" theory that the Bible is universally obvious to all so they can be "saved."
BTW, the 'Urim and Tummim was also similar to (lehavdil 'elef 'alfei 'alafim havdalot!) "divination," but G-d commanded it nevertheless. Unless you want to be a "higher critic."
I do not know of any passage in the Hebrew scriptures where it is taught to ascribe meaning to sizes, shapes, crowns, or to derive that the names of letters are “loaded with infinite meaning” - unless G_d directly commands us to do such a thing.
In other words, you're a Protestant. You could have just said so.
Are you aware that the original Biblical text has no vowels or punctuation but that these come from oral tradition? Are you aware that before the printing press Torah Scrolls and other Biblical books had to be written by hand in accordance with ancient rules that are nowhere to be found in the Bible itself? By your logic, the very transmission of the Biblical text is invalid since it involves rules not written in the Bible. I do understand that the Hebrew letters have numerical values and that there are apocalyptic meanings given to some numbers - but, other than that, I don’t see what you are describing as ever practiced by Moses or the Prophets.
I'd say the speaker commits a few "errors of enthusiasm": placing the Thirty Years War in the Middle Ages, implicating the Germans in the Hundred Years War, identifying Germany with the Hapsburgs and the "Holy Roman Empire" with Rome when the latter was actually Germany and the Hapsburgs were among its rulers, and the claim that no other country besides Germany has been divided. From our own lifetimes we are aware of Vietnam, Korea, China, and even Samoa, though these were all for different reasons. Also, while Nazi Germany broke numerous treaties before the war, it never broke with any of its satellite nations during the war (Italy being only the most important of these). Also the violated treaties were mostly "non-aggression pacts," not actual treaties of alliance like the Pact of Steel or the Axis Pact.
My own very amateurish attempt at understanding Rome and Germany in the Talmud is the Roman Empire and its successor powers uniting with Germany.
But enough of my irreverence. I have a question, Phinneous. Do the rabbis have any tradition of Communism being foretold by the Prophets or CHaZa"L similar to the traditions about Germany? Communism has also been a great plague to the world and is unfortunately not as discredited as Nazism. It's hard to believe there were no warnings about this as well. What complicates the issue here is the fact that the evil of `Amaleq and the evil of Communism claim to be the absolute antitheses of each other, with `Amaleq claiming that Communism is (chas vechalilah!) "Jewish" and the Communists claiming to be ultimately the only alternative to Nazism (G-d forbid!). What is even more fascinating is that while `Amaleq allegedly represents irrationality and spirituality, Communism (the alleged ultimate enemy of the enemies of the Jewish People) worships human reason and wishes to reduce all of reality to matter in motion. There simply must be references to Communism in the ancient Tradition but I've never heard them discussed. Do you know of any?
I caught a few “errors of enthusiasm” too and had also first heard of the prophesy at Aish Discovery... a few years after you my G-dly brother. The thrust of the class is spot on.
I haven’t heard of similar phenomena for Communism, though you can probably find some (kosher) Bible Code site that has “Stalin” or “Lenin” “Marx” “Democrats” etc with a correlation.
There is a well known story (in Lubavitch circles) that at the time of Stalin’s death, the chassidm were at a gathering with the Rebbe where he incited them to stand up and shout Hurrah! (double meaning-— “Hurrah!” as we understand it...a cheer, and hu-rah (He is wicked). The rest is untold history. See here:
http://livingjewish.net/2013/02/19/hurrah-hurrah-hu-rah/
And I just looked it up and it happened at a Purim gathering ;)
Lastly, remember that the gematria of Amalek is “safek” Doubt. Amalek always comes along and tries to cool the inspiration of a Torah believer. “Oh, you just came through the split sea and are on your way to hear G-d’s voice ey?” “You are the same guys who were idol-worshiping slaves in Egypt weren’t you now?” [then came Amalek and attacked the Jews in the desert...] Amalek, spiritually, is coldness. They come to dull the enthusiasm and passion for G-d. So in a funny way, Mr. Watchman is right about Amalekites on FR! Ha ha!
The descendants of Amalek did not confine themselves to just one part of Europe.
Re: “You’re obviously not comfortable with knowledge confined to the original and authentic text that is inaccessible in translation . . .”
You are correct. I am not comfortable with reading some meaning into the Scriptures with claims of “secret knowledge” or numerology or meanimgs that are “inaccessible in translation” whether the source is Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, or anyone else. When one does so, one can run the danger of being presumptuous with G_d’s word - of claiming a message from Him that He did not give. Maybe you are “comfortable with that, but I am not.
Re: “BTW, the ‘Urim and Tummim was also similar to (lehavdil ‘elef ‘alfei ‘alafim havdalot!) “divination,” but G-d commanded it nevertheless.”
But there’s the difference - G_d commanded it in the case of the Urim and Thummim.
Re: “Are you aware that the original Biblical text has no vowels or punctuation but that these come from oral tradition?
Yes.
Re: “Are you aware that before the printing press Torah Scrolls and other Biblical books had to be written by hand in accordance with ancient rules that are nowhere to be found in the Bible itself?
Yes. And I have the utmost respect for the scribes and priests that were meticulously careful in their copying of the text, from counting the number of letters, even notating repeated words that were clearly a copyist error (but notating as such) to make sure the copy was exact. If a mistake was found they started over. This is why the Dead Sea scrolls show no real differences between the Isaiah copy found in the Dead Sea caves and the much later copies of the 12th century. This is also why liberal or atheist claims that the Biblical texts we have today are unreliable or much different than the original is untenable.
Re: “By your logic, the very transmission of the Biblical text is invalid since it involves rules not written in the Bible.”
Good copying protocols in order to carefully preserve G_d’s written Word is not the same thing as ascribing “meaning to sizes, shapes, crowns, or to derive that the names of letters are loaded with infinite meaning”. When G_d told Moses to write down His Laws, I am assuming that He wanted Moses to do so accurately and carefully, even if He didn’t tell Moses what process to use.
Re: “In other words, you’re a Protestant. You could have just said so.”
Ah, but not Lutheran, Calvinist, Pentacostal, Holiness, Non-denominational, etc. You sound like a Jewish mystic or an extreme Pentacostal, but what does that matter?
In conclusion, did you find any examples of the prophets reading meaning into the “sizes, shapes, crowns, and names of the letters”?
Tehillim 28:8
יְהוָה עֹז־לָמוֹ וּמָעוֹז יְשׁוּעוֹת מְשִׁיחוֹ הוּא׃
That Psalm speaks only of G-d and the people of Israel. There are no “types and shadows.”
Isaiah 43:11
Zechariah 14:9
Malachi 3:6
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