Posted on 02/22/2015 12:15:07 PM PST by RnMomof7
You are wrong on both counts. The saved are judged at tyhe judgment seat of Christ (1Cor. 3:8ff ) as to the manner of their workmanship in building the church, so as to determine the rewards they will receive or lose, but which is only for the saved and is not to determine that status.
The lost go to Hell at death and then face the great white throne judgment to determine their degree of punishment in the Lake of Fire.
Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable as it not only contains real names but the Lord never used science fiction, which a soul being conscious after death and suffering would be if annihilationism is true.
In addition, to relegate the dire warnings of the Lord - that it would be better to pluck out your eye, or cuts your arm or leg off if it causes you to sin rather than end up where the fire is not quenched (Mt. 18:8,9) - to merely being burnt up at the end is absurd, as then it hardly has much deterrent. Many would consider 70 years fulfilling lusts in exchange to final annihilation to be a fair trade.
But what the Lord taught was that the lost will be sent to the same place as the devil, and both shall realize everlasting punishment of varying degrees.
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 8:11-12)
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. (Matthew 13:40-43)
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Matthew 25:41)
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. (Matthew 25:46)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:11)
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
As long as people understand that they are saved purely and absolutely by the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, who died on the cross and rose again, and who thereafter ascended to heaven, I think they are in pretty good shape.
Purgatory has nothing to hang it’s that on in my Bible, but death itself is not something we know a great deal about, we can only speculate. As long as we understand that our ties together as fellow believers are stronger and more vital than traditions of which we are fond, we should be able to disagree without being disagreeable.
Considering that we are compared to a seed planted in the earth, it seems likely that some sort of ripening process occurs most of the time, whether active or passive is a question that I don’t think is addressed.
Now where did that come from? If you don’t want to discuss the issue we started on why don’t you just say so?
....Let me inquire. I just have a hunch. Are you a “professional” Christian? That is a person that makes a living off of “gifts to God? You know? Do you eat off of those gifts and make your house payments and car payment off of God’s money? How about your 401K? You believe in Tithing? Not in the New Testament is it? and God doesn’t need the money does He? He owns everything— doesn’t He? Now tell me, are you a professional Christian?
No eternal damnation, no tithing, and no compensation for ministry. Are you a Jehovah's Witness or something?
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[20] The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
[21] Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
_________________________________________________________________
Remember, this is not a parable, it is a real-time eyewitness account. Do you lack what the rich man lacked?
For many, this life is about as Heavenly as it gets too.
They have been taught from birth to believe anythng Rome says and they do not know the Bible. It is very sad.
You left out the entire dialogue and key point.
Here it is:
Matthew 19:
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
Cuz one thread just wasn’t enough....lol.
LOL imagine all of the Catholic threads we could say that about!
Yes, you could. And you do. Often. And I’ve never complained. Too bad you seem to have a double standard.
Ok thanks
I knew you were.
No.
[1] Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
[2] While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
[3] Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
[4] But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
[5] For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
[6] Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
[7] Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
[8] Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
[9] Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
[10] For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
[11] Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
[12] For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
[13] And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
[14] But and if ye suffer for righteousness’ sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
[15] But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
[16] Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
[17] For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
[21] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
[22] Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
.
Context is, as always, the problem when catholics stoop to quoting scripture.
Read at least the chapter to keep from this kind of distortion in the future.
.
To be sure, leaving all will not gain me moral perfection or eternal life, nor did it for the the rich man.
But it seems that according to your isolation hermeneutic, everyone must literally leave all. Instead, this was not a literal requirement for all, (1Tim. 6:17,18) and Zacchæus only gave half, but the Lord saw that what kept this man from faith in Him, and thus from following Him, was his love for riches.
But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. (Matthew 19:22)
Some others will never truly believe in Christ unless they throw away all their drugs, or split from their fornicating partner, or whatever God convicts them of as being inconsistent with faith in Him.
God does not require one to "stop sinning" to become born again, but one who believes on the Lord Jesus is implicitly choosing in his heart to reject others gods, according to the light and grace they have, which can vary much. And while one may not have the power to turn from sin, the convert who wants the Lord Jesus to save him also implicitly wants a new life with Him. (Jn. 3:19-21)
But it is not the fruit of faith that appropriates justification of the unGodly in conversion, but true faith, which purifies the heart, (Rm. 4:5; Acts 15:9) while the works of faith that follow justify one as being a saved child of God. Without which kind of faith one is dead.
Just what is your argument?
..
Quote the scripture when making an assertion.
Your assumption is not scripture.
.
“Catholics stoop to quoting scripture”
You’re a regular clown.
Your “context” does nothing to undermine the CONTENT.
GIven that Christ “ also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;”
He did not do so in vain.
Where were they when he preached to them?
As for the Mt. 5:26 reference in the original post, the author’s attempt to contradict the meaning of scripture is pitiful.
“You will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.”
Clearly meaning you WILL “come out”.
No, just the rich. He said a rich man cannot enter the kingdom. The words could not be any plainer.
Instead, this was not a literal requirement for all, (1Tim. 6:17,18) and Zacchæus only gave half, but the Lord saw that what kept this man from faith in Him, and thus from following Him, was his love for riches.
He did not say anything like that in Matt 19. Indeed, he generalized the requirement to all rich men without qualification.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.