Sungenis Claims: "the Church did not receive any divine revelation on the nature of Purgatory"

Thoughts of Francis Turretine ^ | July 03, 2010 | Turretinfan

[ravenwolf]

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

The below verses might tell us what Jesus was doing in purgatory

Hosea 6
3 He will revive us after two days: on the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Romans 8
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[daniel1212]

Not the word purgatory per se, but certainly a description of a purgatorial fire. Here are the words of St Augustine

And,

It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated [atoned, be compensated] either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or 'purifying' punishments.” (INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA; cp. 1. 1967)

However, this myth is based upon a false premise of justification

For in contrast to Scripture, in which God justifies the unGodly by counting his faith as righteousness, while purifying his heart by faith by which he is regenerated, (Rm. 4:5; Acts 15:7-9) yet it must be the kind of a faith which effects obedience, under Roman soteriology God justifies the Godly based upon his holiness, as one is "formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness.” (Catholic Encyclopedia>Sanctifying Grace) Which is normally initially "infused" via regeneration effected by the act itself of sprinkling of water (ex opere operato), thus at that point the newly baptized is fit to enter Heaven. Thus Abraham must have become born again in Gn. 15:6.

However, due to failure to maintain this and as justification is based one one's own holiness, then under the Roman system of salvation, the RC (the EOs reject the purgatory of Rome) typically must endure postmortem "purifying torments" for an indeterminate time in purgatory until they atone for sins and once again become good enough to enter Heaven.

In seeking to support this tradition with Scripture, RC invoke 2 Maccabees 12:43ff, but which only teaches praying and making offerings for the dead if perhaps God may forgive them, and which was for those died due to mortal sin, which Rome holds their is no hope for.

Other texts either refer to present chastisement or the lost, or 1Cor. 3:8ff, which only refers to suffering the loss of rewards (and implicitly the Lord's displeasure), and which only occurs after the Lord's return, not commencing at death.

[Resettozero]

You made a leap of faith from "imprisoned spirits" to their location being in "purgatory". Perhaps you meant Paradise, of which the Lord Jesus Christ spoke to the thief on the cross with Him.

Take a look at the full context of the points the writer was making, as led by the Holy Spirit...at what was actually being written as opposed to the RCC personal interpretation (and manipulation) of it:

1 Peter 3
13 Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good?
14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear their threats; do not be frightened.”
15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits—
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

[RnMomof7]

The Greek Orthodox church doesn’t have that doctrine (neither do protestants); so it’s indeed something that is ‘unsettled’ and may be dropped one day by the Roman Catholic Church.

Yep...just like "limbo "

[RnMomof7]

Purgatory does not deny true efficacy of the cross. Your comment begs the question, what did Christ means by “it is finished” ? His mission,of course, which is the salvation of the world. But the world continues, and the work of the devil continues. For which the minions of the devil reproach us, by pointing out the ways we fall short but also that Christ has not come again. Yet we die, one by one, and it is only by dying that we see the course of our life, and how many of us see a perfect trust in Him?

Was anyone (beside the thief) saved when Christ was crucified ?

[RnMomof7]

AMEN

[RnMomof7]

I can give verses,but I'm guessing you'll have your own protestant interpretation of why those verses are somehow wrong. I've been down this Bible back and forth road with posters like yourself before and I am not interested in dabbling in your protestant heretical views.

Could you PLEASE share those verses ?

[ravenwolf]

You made a leap of faith from “imprisoned spirits” to their location being in “purgatory”.

---

If you want to disagree it is fine but that being the case we need to stick to the scripture which we disagree on.

In the first place purgatory is just a name the Catholics call it.

To me it is a state of sleep, Jesus went and awakened those who were asleep and they went with him.

[RnMomof7]

2 Maccabees 12:39-42; 44-45 This is not found in Luther’s bible since he used the Palestinian canon used by the apostate Jews who never became Christian after the destruction of Jerusalem (post temple Jerusalem = whore of Babylon because those Jews had destroyed Jesus). The Alexandrian canon used by Jesus (and Catholics) contains Maccabees.

Added to the Jewish canon FOR JUST THAT PURPOSE

That book..by IT'S own declaration is not inspired ...all inspired scripture is written by prophets (those that speak for God) , and this book tells you plainly that it is not infallible scripture

In 1 Maccabees 9:27 and 14:41 we read that prophets ceased to a come to the people.
1 Mac 9:26-30
26 And they sought out, and made diligent search after the friends of Judas, and brought them to Bacchides, and he took vengeance of them, and abused them. 27 And there was a great tribulation in Israel, such as was not since the day, that there was no prophet seen in Israel.
28 And all the friends of Judas came together, and said to Jonathan:
29 Since thy brother Judas died, there is not a man like him to go forth against our enemies, Bacchides, and them that are the enemies of our nation.
30 Now therefore we have chosen thee this day to be our prince, and captain in his stead to fight our battles.
1 Mac14:41-2
41 And that the Jews, and their priests, had consented that he should be their prince, and high priest for ever, till there should arise a faithful prophet:
42 And that he should be chief over them, and that he should have the charge of the sanctuary, and that he should appoint rulers over their works, and over the country, and over the armour, and over the strong holds.

So by its own testament the book of Maccabees and the other Apocrypha could never be considered inspired scripture equal to the other inspired books of the Old Testament , as all the books of the OT were written by men that were prophets.

So we have no inspired teachings on Purgatory in the word of god.

The Catholic church adapted an uninspired practice or belief that the Jews had likely adopted from the heathen nations around them and had never been taught by God through the prophets that spoke for him

Also 1 Peter 3:19, 20 This prison is where Christ went after his death to preach to the spirits who were not yet in heaven, but not damned either (the Patriarchs). St. Augustine’s 99th epistle corroborates this (correct) interpretation, as proof that the Church has always recognized the third place, not heaven, not hell; it is not new or unsettled.

But the church has no "further" "revelation" on that right?

Could we plaease have the INFALLIBLE interpretation of this scripture from the magisterium

[eastsider]

It looks like Sungenis is referring to the nature of it, not the existence of it.

Worth repeating. BTTT.

[Campion]

The Orthodox don’t call it “purgatory” (that’s a Latin word), they call it “spiritual toll-houses”.

[RnMomof7]

I said my St. Michael prayer, as well.

How does an angel become a saint??

BTW Michael has an assignment He is the Guardian of Israel (Daniel 12:1)

[Campion]

Show us ANYWHERE in the scriptures where Christians get burned...It's not there

1 Cor 3:15 and Heb 12:29. NEXT !!

[Resettozero]

If you want to disagree it is fine but that being the case we need to stick to the scripture which we disagree on.

In the first place purgatory is just a name the Catholics call it.

To me it is a state of sleep, Jesus went and awakened those who were asleep and they went with him.

I used the same scripture you quoted, just more of it.

You said that "purgatory is just a name Catholics call it". Call what?

If it is a "state of sleep", they are still effectively dead. Do you mean Hades?

My point is that "purgatory" is a made-up RCC doctrine/teaching/word and not an idea from Jesus or His apostles or the Holy Bible or anywhere other than from Catholic writers. It is not Scriptural or in agreement with Scripture.

[Campion]

Of course; this is well known. The only defined dogmata concerning purgatory are (a) it exists; (b) it is the state or place wherein the elect receive their final sanctification prior to entering the Beatific Vision; (c) the poor souls there are helped by the prayers of the faithful on earth.

Any further definition would be unacceptable to the East, which is why Florence studiously avoided it.

[Resettozero]

The only defined dogmata concerning purgatory are (a) it exists; (b) it is the state or place wherein the elect receive their final sanctification prior to entering the Beatific Vision; (c) the poor souls there are helped by the prayers of the faithful on earth.

Any chance it's part of the doctrines of demons?

[Campion]

The word is of Latin derrivation; you aren't going to find it in a book written in Greek and Hebrew. You won't find "Trinity" there, either.

Jews pray for their dead, and did in Jesus' day. He lodged no objection to the practice that we know of. All of the ancient Christian churches pray for their dead, not only the Latins. Only you guys, in the entire Judaeo-Christian world, reject the practice.

Praying for the dead implies a state or condition in which they can be helped by your prayers, obviously.

[Campion]

No. Do you have any more uncharitable questions?

[Resettozero]

Only you guys, in the entire Judaeo-Christian world, reject the practice.

By "Only you guys", which group do you mean? Non-RCC Christians?

[Resettozero]

No. Do you have any more uncharitable questions?

Well, I do not agree with your negative response. I think it may be a doctrine/teaching that is not from God.

What is an "uncharitable" question?