Salvation by grace alone through faith alone excludes works righteousness

Possessing the Treasure ^ | February 16, 2015 | Mike Ratliff

[LearsFool]

those who imagine the works they do contribute to their justification or that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ was insufficient to save us to the uttermost.

The question is not whether we "contribute to our justification." Nor is it whether "the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient." The question is whether Jesus' sacrifice saves us with working faith or non-working faith.

Let me illustrate with a question:

What save the firstborn of the Israelites in Egypt?
A. The sacrifice of the lamb
B. The work of putting the blood on the doorpost
C. Both
D. Neither

Which element was unnecessary?
A. The sacrifice of the lamb
B. The work of putting the blood on the doorpost
C. Both
D. Neither

What say you?

Genuine, life-changing faith WILL result in good deeds, but these deeds cannot and DO NOT save us.

You're absolutely right that good deeds do not save us. Those works of obedience are what make a saving faith. Without them, whatever "faith" one may claim is as dead as a corpse.

Let's take baptism, for instance - since it's the "work" commanded by God that's most often objected to on FR. Not only is it commanded by God, but it is assigned a purpose by Him. Without it, faith accomplishes no more in us than would have been accomplished at Jericho without the marching.

The marching was faith in action for Joshua and the Israelites, just as baptism is faith in action for the believer. For the Israelites, that working faith did what non-working faith couldn't, and the walls came tumblin' down. For the believer, working faith does what non-working faith cannot: it kills and buries the sin-slave, and resurrects a free man (Romans 6), it washes away sins (Acts 22), it's where Jesus performs the life-saving heart surgery (Colossians 2), etc.

So you see, the question is not whether works of obedience to God justify us, but whether they make a justifying faith, a perfected faith, a living faith, a fruitful faith. Because without that kind of faith, with any other kind of "faith" one may claim, the sacrifice of the Son - sufficient as it is - avails us nothing.

[ScottfromNJ]

“But, my concern is the usage of epistle verses (written to people who already know how to be born again) to preach salvation, while ignoring the commandments of the Lord for conversion, which are found in his commissions, and in the instructions given in Acts 2:38.”

Acts 11:16 -

“Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.”

Rom 10:10 -

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”

[Zuriel]

**Acts 11:16 -“Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.”**

True, the Lord baptizes with the Holy Ghost. As His commissions prove, He commanded his disciples to baptize in water, in His name for the remission of sins. Which is why upon immediately seeing the Holy Ghost poured out on the Gentiles, Peter HAD to baptize them. Neither he, nor any one else could withstand the Lord’s ordinance, saying, “can any man forbid water”, and then baptizing them “in the name of the Lord” (Acts 10:48)

**Rom 10:10 -For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”**

That is a condensed statement. Just like John 3:16 is a condensed statement that follows the Lord’s detailed command of rebirth (3:3,5-8), so is Romans 10:10. Because the Roman saints already knew the details of rebirth:

Rms 6:3; “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
4. “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:....” (That’s certainly not Spirit baptism, because the Spirit is life.) “..that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the GLORY of the FATHER, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
5 “For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS of his death, we shall be also in the LIKENESS of his resurrection.”

“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being THEN made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” 6:17,18

How about trying this example to see if your way is thorough: You KNOW that there is a place called Crater Lake. You’ve heard a lot about it, even seen photos. Let me see you get there from NJ, with out ANY directions (verbal, maps, gps or compass), without reading any signs, and only driving at night (yeah, you can use headlights).

Well, that’s what quoting Acts 16:31 and Romans 10:10 is like when not expounding the truth to the lost: sending someone down the road to a destination, but no details on how to get there. That’s what I had for 28 yrs in a Calvinist church.

Acts 2:38 is the road map to rebirth. Is it from heaven, or of men?

[ScottfromNJ]

“True, the Lord baptizes with the Holy Ghost. As His commissions prove, He commanded his disciples to baptize in water, in His name for the remission of sins. Which is why upon immediately seeing the Holy Ghost poured out on the Gentiles, Peter HAD to baptize them. Neither he, nor any one else could withstand the Lord’s ordinance, saying, “can any man forbid water”, and then baptizing them “in the name of the Lord” (Acts 10:48)”

Peter’s realization of true baptism in Acts 11:16 comes after Acts 10:47-48.

[boatbums]

The question is not whether we "contribute to our justification." Nor is it whether "the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient." The question is whether Jesus' sacrifice saves us with working faith or non-working faith.

But that IS what you are implying whether you realize it or not. We are saved by grace through faith apart from our works. I can show you dozens of Bible passages that say exactly that. In your illustrations you give, the answer is obvious that faith is demonstrated by what we do/our works. The Israelites, by their actions, exhibited that they had faith in God's promises. That is how a genuine faith behaves. When Abraham willingly put Isaac upon the altar in obedience to God, he did so trusting that God was able to STILL fulfill His promises of making of his seed a great nation. Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead... (Heb. 11:19)

Read Hebrews chapter 11 and you will see ample proof that genuine, soul-saving faith is the kind that brings forth fruit - is demonstrated in action. But, the question to you is, did the works these men and women do contribute to their justification? Or, was it by their faith they were justified? God said it was their faith. And that is what has been repeatedly defended here with good reason because it is what God says. We can claim no glory or boast of our works in the plan of salvation. ALL the glory goes to God, we can claim none of it. We are saved by grace through faith and kept saved by that same grace. Grace is undeserved, unmerited, unearned favor. It is freely given to us through Christ and we receive it by faith. AFTER that, then the Holy Spirit works in us to bring us into conformity with Christ.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls. (I Peter 1:3-9)

[Zuriel]

**Peter’s realization of true baptism in Acts 11:16 comes after Acts 10:47-48.**

Whaaat?, you think that when the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius and his household, Peter didn’t realize that it was from God, UNTIL after he baptized them in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins. He had already seen the Holy Ghost fall on thousands by that point, and you appear to have him in a state of dementia while preaching to Cornelius. That is WHY he commanded them to be baptized; he and the others had just witnessed the Spirit given. He HAD to step in and command their sins be remitted (see John 20:23).

So do you believe that Spirit baptism is “true baptism”, and water baptism in the name of Jesus is man-made? If that’s your interpretation, you’ve just declared Acts 2:38 to not be from heaven, but of men. And you seem to have dismissed these as well:

John 3:5-8; a man must be born of the water and of the Spirit, and how you KNOW when they are.
Matt. 28:19; the Lord commanded that THEY baptize souls.
Mark 16:16; The Lord commanded to his disciples that one must believe and be baptized.
Luke 24:47; The Lord commanded that repentance and remission of sins are to be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
John 20:23; The Lord commanded that whose soever sins YE remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins YE retain, they are retained.

Furthermore, with your interpretation, Peter should have gotten a hold of Philip, and told him to quit performing anymore water baptisms. He failed to stop Paul from baptizing everywhere he went.

Every anti-water baptism teacher scrurries to 1Cor, 1:17, to say Paul didn’t baptize, when he just got done admitting to it. And from that we understand that he wasn’t sent to perform John’s baptism unto repentance. Because Paul DID personally baptize, and even re-baptized 12 in Ephesus, that had only been baptized unto John’s baptism. And one can argue that he had a hand in these as well:

9:18 His own conversion.
16:15 Lydia and her household.
16:33 keeper of the prison and his household.
18:8 Crispus (one of several Paul admitted to baptizing in Corinth. 1Cor 1:14,16)
22:16 His own again.

1Peter 3:20,21 is quite plain,.... 20 “...eight souls were saved by water.” 21 “The LIKE figure whereunto even BAPTISM doth also now save us (not the butting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Good conscience?...Yes, by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Just don’t do it if you don’t believe it.

Surely you won’t tell me that Acts 2:38 is a lie. Pray about this.....it’s very serious.

[redleghunter]

But why did Naaman go in the water?

[RnMomof7]

excellent

[Zuriel]

**We are saved by grace through faith apart from our works.**

As long as we are in these physical bodies, one simply can’t simply can’t claim faith without a physical sign. Look, your desire for displayed faith without having faith displayed, is not seen in many of the miracles the Lord.

Let’s just look in Matthew for a few examples:

8:5-13 “There CAME unto him a centurion, BESEECHING him..”..you know the rest, where Jesus says. “..I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel”.

9:2 “They BROUGHT unto him a man sick of the palsy.....and Jesus SEEING their faith....”.

9:21 The woman with the issue of blood: “If I may but TOUCH his garment......Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole”.

15:21-28 The Canaanite woman: “..CAME she, and WORSHIPPED....., “Truth Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their master’s table. Then Jesus answwered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith...”.

Need I list more?

And when did God first commend Abraham for his faith?...Gen. 15:6...AFTER he had obeyed the call, moving his entire entourage several hundred miles (the hard way), built altars, paid tithes to Mechizedek.

**When Abraham willingly put Isaac upon the altar in obedience to God, he did so trusting that God was able to STILL fulfill His promises of making of his seed a great nation. Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead... (Heb. 11:19)**

That’s right. God expects you to PROVE your faith: “Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God...”. Gen. 22:12

Sure, God KNOWS what someone will do, BUT he expects you to PROVE your faith. He wants YOU to KNOW that without obedience, you are NOT displaying faith to him.

I believe that by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, per his instructions, HE does indeed remit them. It’s the power of his name in baptism. That is why I obeyed Acts 2:38

[CynicalBear]

>>Let me illustrate with a question:<<

You've tried that before and it still isn't going to work for you. I'll remind you of the answer by referring you here

>>Those works of obedience are what make a saving faith.<<

Wrong. That's completely backwards. It's a saving faith that produces works.

>>The marching was faith in action for Joshua and the Israelites, just as baptism is faith in action for the believer.<<

Once again see the link above. It seems that Catholic reasoning is always built on a false premise.

[CityCenter]

And thankfully, both are forgivable. I know of no one who has or practices perfect faith in grace. Each of us must rely on God’s gift to make it through.

[Zuriel]

**(I Peter 1:3-9)**

Written to people ALREADY born again:

1 Peter 1:2: “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto OBEDIENCE and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ...”.

1Peter 3:20,21 “...eight souls were saved by water. The LIKE figure whereunto even BAPTISM doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”

Good conscience?...Yes, by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Just don’t do it if you don’t believe it.

[LearsFool]

I notice you didn't answer the two questions I put to you. Why is that? They're multiple choice, so all you need to do is give the letters. It only takes a couple of keystrokes. :-)

Yes, I've seen people cite the "not of works" Scriptures to try and prove that God expects only faith. The trouble is a confusion as to what "works" means in the various places the Bible writers used the term.

Since Abraham was justified by faith after working, James concludes that his works made his faith perfect. And it was his perfected, working faith that justified him:

"Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith." - James 2:22-24

Does James' understanding of works conflict with Paul's? No, Paul is speaking of different sort of works in many passages. And so are you when you say, "We are saved by grace through faith apart from our works."

What I'm trying to get you to focus on is the role works play in faith. It's not that they "contribute to our justification", as you put it. It's that they make our faith a justifying faith.

It's impossible to separate this sort of faith from works. Read James 2 again. To say that this faith exists separate from works is an error. The only faith that exists separate from works is the dead faith such as the devils have. Is that what you have? Or do you have a working faith?

[LearsFool]

But why did Naaman go in the water?

Because he had faith - faith that God would heal his leprosy if he did.

Why don't people go in the water today? Don't they have faith that God will heal their iniquities if they do?

[RnMomof7]

The cross of Christ fulfilled the OT types ..HE is the sacrificed lamb, He is the Priest that that offered the sacrifice

The funny thing is Catholics miss the type in placing the blood over the doorpost ..

[LearsFool]

It's a saving faith that produces works.

Yes, indeed. And it's works that produce a saving faith:

"Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect; and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God. Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith." - James 2:22-24

Rather than continue with confusing answers to my two simple questions, you could just give us the letters (A, B, C, D, or E) so that your opinion about faith and works at Jericho will be plain. That would help the discussion, and be an improvement over the single answer you gave ("The answer to both of those is faith.") in which you say faith was both necessary and unnecessary(!).

Or, since it seems you don't enjoy the challenge of simple questions, I'll make it less painful by posing just one:

Would the walls of Jericho have fallen without the marching?
A. Yes
B. No

[LearsFool]

Catholics miss a lot of things. :-)

Perhaps you have the answers to those two simple questions? If so, there are several people in this discussion who would no doubt appreciate your help with them.

[CynicalBear]

>> And it's works that produce a saving faith:<<

Works produce a saving faith??? In what alternate universe? God instils faith, faith produces works. Any other wording is twisting the words of God.

>>Would the walls of Jericho have fallen without the marching?<<

It is written

Hebrews 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

[LearsFool]

You didn't answer the question. Please tell us, why won't you answer the question?

Since you like to demand other people answer your questions ("You answer the questions I posed here first.") you clearly aren't opposed to questioning others.

So I'll ask again:

Would the walls of Jericho have fallen without the marching?
A. Yes
B. No

Little children in Sunday School know the answer. Let's see whether you do.

[LearsFool]

Sorry, I forgot to ping the other people you wanted to hear your answer to the question.