Mary Matters (Dr. Walter Martin on disbelief in the Mother of God)

Catholic Exchange ^ | JULY 26, 2014 | Tim Staples

[Grateful2God]

I'm Catholic, remember?

Scripture

Sacred Tradition

Magisterium (Teaching Authority) of the Catholic Church

Don't approve? Oh, well. Let's focus on something we can agree on...

[Elsie]

I once got an invite to join Mensa.

When I saw how much the yearly DUES were going to be; I figgered, “I’m smarter than THAT!!”

[Elsie]

A man walked up to a Franciscan and Jesuit and asked, “How many novenas must you say to get a Mercedes Benz?”

The Franciscan asked, “What’s a Mercedes Benz?”

The Jesuit asked, “What’s a novena?”

[metmom]

And I believe that it was necessary for Christ to die in His divinity in order to redeem us from our sins.

Just wow.......

Where is that in the CCC? Or is that your own personal interpretation of ........ something........

Now this is the SECOND person who's saying that Deity died when Jesus died.

The Author of Life Himself died?

Catholicism is more screwed up than I ever imagined it could be.

[Grateful2God]

Why don’t you click the link I posted and find out?

[Elsie]

It's the first I've had today...

---

27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.
 

—Luke 6:27–29 KJV

[daniel1212]

IOW, Mary's cooperation with the Will of God brought our Redeemer and Mediator into the world. In this sense, she is our Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix. She is not divine.

It is not that "Mother of God" may not ever be technically allowed in an defining expression, as the Holy Spirit is careful to provide regarding Israel being the progenitor of Christ, "of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen," (Romans 9:5) but the problem is that this is not how Mother of God is expressed, but that even the more accurate title God-bearer (Theotokos) is shunned in preference to a term which most naturally denotes ontological oneness, that Mary contributed to the deity of Christ.

This is not the language of Scripture any more than "Co-Redemptrix" is, and even Ratzinger's objection to Co-Redemptrix also applies here.

when asked in an interview in 2000 whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-redemptrix, then-Cardinal Ratzinger responded that “the response of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, is, broadly, that what is signified by this is already better expressed in other titles of Mary, while the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings” (53).

He went on to say that, “Everything comes from Him [Christ], as their Latter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything she is through Him. The word “Co-redemptrix” would obscure this origin. A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way. “For matters of faith, continuity of terminology with the language of Scripture and that of the Fathers is itself an essential element; it is improper simply to manipulate language” (God and the world: believing and living in our time, by Pope Benedict XVI, Peter Seewald, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 2000, p. 306

And if "Mother of God" and other titles are to be used by way of extrapolation, then Mary's mother can be called the grandmother of God, and so forth all the way back to Eve. But the unqualified use of Mother of God is used as part of the Catholic hyper exaltation of Mary as an almost almighty demigoddess who cannot be praised to much, without ever crossing the ambiguous line into Latria. Which hyper exaltation of any mortal is never seen in Scripture, and we are warned not to think of men above that which is written.

[daniel1212]

Many Protestants have been taught from the cradle that Catholics make Mary a demigod, or even worship her. This disposes them to reject all Catholic arguments out of hand.

Where would they ever get the idea that Catholics make Mary a demigod, or even worship her.

One would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, and as having Divine powers and glory, and making offerings and beseeching such for Heavenly help, directly accessed by mental prayer.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

And making that distinction itself is presumptuous, as the Scriptures do not sanction religiously bowing down to any statue in supplication, nor supplies even one single prayer to anyone in Heaven but the Lord (crying "Abba, Father," Gal. 4:6; not "Mama, Mother"), nor in instructions on who to pray to ("our Father who art in Heaven," not "our Mother").

Note that many Catholic Marian attributions much parallel even that of Christ:

For in the the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,

• as Christ was sinless, so Mary was;

• as the Lord remained a virgin, so Mary;

• as Christ was called the Son of God, indicating ontological oneness, so Mary is called the Mother of God (which easily infers the same, and is not the language of Scripture);

• as the emphasis is upon Christ as the Creator through whom God (the Father) made all things, including Mary, so it is emphasized that uniquely “to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood,” shed for the salvation of mankind, (the logic behind which can lead back to Eve);

• as Catholics (adding error to error) believe Christ gave His actual flesh and blood to be eaten, so it is emphasized that Mary gave Him this, being fashioned out of Mary's pure blood and even being “kneaded with the admixture of her virginal milk,” so that she can say, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5);

• as Scripture declares that Christ suffered for our sins, so Mary is said to have done so also;

• as Christ saves us from the condemnation and death resulting from the fault of Adam, so it is taught that man was condemned through the fault of Eve, the root of death, but that we are saved through the merits of Mary; who was the source of life for everyone.

• as the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;

• as Christ is given all power in heaven and in earth, so Mary is “surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven.”

• as Christ is the King of the saints and over all kings, (Rv. 15:3; 17:14; 19:16) so Mary is made Queen of Heaven and the greatest saint, and that “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise;”

• as the Father made Christ Lord over all things, so Mary is enthroned (all other believers have to wait for their crowns) and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things;

• as Christ is the express image of God, and highly exalted above all under the Father, having the primary position among all creation, so Mary is declared to be the greatest saint of all, and the first of all creatures, and as having a certain affinity with the Father, with a pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father;

• as Christ ever liveth to make intercession for the saints, so is Mary said to do so;

• as all things come from the Father through the Son, so Mary is made to be the dispenser of all grace;

• as Christ is given all power on Heaven and on earth, Mary is said to have (showing some restraint) “almost unlimited power;”

• as no man comes to the Father but through the Son, so it is taught that no one can come to the Son except through Mary in Heaven;

• and as the Lord called souls to come to Him to be given life and salvation, so (in misappropriation of the words of Scripture) it is said of Mary, “He that shall find me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord;” “that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”

• And as Christ is given many titles of honor, so Mary also is, except that she is honored by Catholics with more titles than they give to the Lord Himself!

  The NT church knoew nothing of

  • an almost almighty demigoddess to whom "Jesus owes His Precious Blood" to,

  • whose [Mary] merits we are saved by,

  • who "had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin,"

  • and was bodily assumed into Heaven, which is a fact (unsubstantiated in Scripture or even early Tradition) because the Roman church says it is, and "was elevated to a certain affinity with the Heavenly Father,"

  • and whose power now "is all but unlimited,"

  • for indeed she "seems to have the same power as God,"

  • "surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven,"

  • so that "the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse."

  • and that “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus,"

  • for indeed saints have "but one advocate," and that is Mary, who "alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation,"

  • Moreover, "there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose,"

  • and who has "authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven,"

  • including "assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels,"

  • whom the good angels "unceasingly call out to," greeting her "countless times each day with 'Hail, Mary,' while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests,"

  • and who (obviously) cannot "be honored to excess,"

  • and who is (obviously) the glory of Catholic people, whose "honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation." Sources and more.

[Grateful2God]

Whatever.

[Elsie]

I believe that God chose the best people on earth to be His parents, and that they both did what He asked of them.

Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth...

[Arthur McGowan]

...in which Jesus as the lamb in heaven is perpetually dying...

Stop right there. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches concerning the Mass. Jesus died on Calvary. He never dies again, not in heaven, not in the Mass.

If you are going to object to "Catholic" teaching, make sure that what you are objecting to actually IS Catholic teaching.

[Elsie]

... they both did what He asked of them.

'Believe' whatever you want; but there is ZERO evidence that GOD ever 'asked' them to give up NORMAL sexual relations with one another.

[Grateful2God]

And so I have!

[metmom]

It was necessary for Christ to suffer these things and enter into His glory, but maybe it was sufficient for Christ to die in his human form to redeem us from our sins.

Absolutely and the reason why is that since Jesus was sinless, then death could not hold Him. He could conquer it and thereby give us life.

Consider this. Something I read today from Tozer.

Jesus didn't come to earth to show us what God is like but to show us what a perfect man is like. He demonstrated what a perfect sinless life before God looked like.

And, yes, He did show us what God is like because everything He did was the Father working through Him. So whatever Jesus did and said and was, is what God does and says and is.

[Elsie]

Then focus on your own marital business.

I'd rather point out how MINE is normal; but Rome's insistence about M&J's relationship is downright ABNORMAL.

[Grateful2God]

Please see post 772.

[Elsie]

If you saw a Muslim Extremist physically attacking someone you knew to be Catholic, whom would you help?

Your apples don't mix too well with your oranges.

[metmom]

As to who He was talking to, I have given that some thought in the past. Was it to the Father, to the crowd, to anyone? Maybe in His humanity He was just crying out in anguish. I really don’t know that answer, either.

There is teaching that since the Hebrew Bible didn't have chapter and verse references, people would direct a person's attention to a certain passage of Scripture by quoting some of it.

That passage directed everyone who heard it to Psalm 22 which is a Messianic psalm. He was telling them that it was about Him and what they were seeing was the prophecy being fulfilled before their very eyes.

[Grateful2God]

I forgot to mention to keep it to yourself. It’s no ones business. Same with the Holy Family.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“How is it contrary to Scripture to say that Mary was conceived without sin, and committed no personal sin? “

Other than the fact those two things are not revealed in Scripture?

On that basis, anything not in the Scriptures that does not contradict a Scripture, can be a truth!

So, since pizza has never been shown in Scripture to hurt your prayer life, we can now teach that pizza improves your prayer life by making you closer to God.

Got it.