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Mary Matters (Dr. Walter Martin on disbelief in the Mother of God)
Catholic Exchange ^ | JULY 26, 2014 | Tim Staples

Posted on 01/24/2015 3:23:43 PM PST by NYer

In my new book, Behold Your Mother: A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines, , I spend most of its pages in classic apologetic defense of Mary as Mother of God, defending her immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, assumption into heaven, her Queenship, and her role in God’s plan of salvation as Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix. But perhaps my most important contributions in the book may well be how I demonstrate each of these doctrines to be crucial for our spiritual lives and even our salvation.

And I should note that this applies to all of the Marian doctrines. Not only Protestants, but many Catholics will be surprised to see how the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, for example, is crucial for all Christians to understand lest they misapprehend the truth concerning the sacred, marriage, sacraments, the consecrated life, and more.

I won’t attempt to re-produce the entire book in this post, but I will choose one example among examples I use to demonstrate why Mary as Mother of God not only matters, but how denying this dogma of the Faith can end in the loss of understanding of “the one true God and Jesus Christ whom [God] has sent” (John 17:3). It doesn’t get any more serious than that!  

In my book, I use the teaching of the late, well-known, and beloved Protestant Apologist, Dr. Walter Martin, as one of my examples. In his classic apologetics work, Kingdom of the Cults, Dr. Martin, gives us keen insight into why the dogma of the Theotokos (“God-bearer,” a synonym with “Mother of God”) is such a “big deal.” But first some background information.

 Truth and Consequences

It is very easy to state what it is that you don’t believe. That has been the history of Protestantism. Protestantism itself began as a… you guessed it… “protest.” “We are against this, this, this, and this.” It was a “protest” against Catholicism. However, the movement could not continue to exist as a protestant against something. It had to stand for something. And that is when the trouble began. When groups of non-infallible men attempted to agree, the result ended up being the thousands of Protestant sects we see today.

Dr. Walter Martin was a good Protestant. He certainly and boldly proclaimed, “I do not believe Mary is the Mother of God.” That’s fine and good. The hard part came when he had to build a theology congruent with his denial. With Dr. Martin, it is difficult to know for sure whether his bad Christology came before or after his bad Mariology—I argue it was probably bad Christology that came first—but let’s just say for now that in the process of theologizing about both Jesus and Mary, he ended up claiming Mary was “the mother of Jesus’ body,” and not the Mother of God. He claimed Mary “gave Jesus his human nature alone,” so that we cannot say she is the Mother of God; she is the mother of the man, Jesus Christ.

This radical division of humanity and divinity manifests itself in various ways in Dr. Martin’s theology. He claimed, for example, that “sonship” in Christ has nothing at all to do with God in his eternal relations within the Blessed Trinity. In Martin’s Christology, divinity and humanity are so sharply divided that he concluded “eternal sonship” to be an unbiblical Catholic invention. On page 103 of his 1977 edition of The Kingdom of the Cults, he wrote:

[T]here cannot be any such thing as eternal Sonship, for there is a logical contradiction of terminology due to the fact that the word “Son” predicates time and the involvement of creativity. Christ, the Scripture tells us, as the Logos, is timeless, “…the Word was in the beginning” not the Son!

From Martin’s perspective then, Mary as “Mother of God” is a non-starter. If “Son of God” refers to Christ as the eternal son, then there would be no denying that Mary is the mother of the Son of God, who is God; hence, Mother of God would be an inescapable conclusion. But if sonship only applies to “time and creativity,” then references to Mary’s “son” would not refer to divinity at all.

But there is just a little problem here. Beyond the fact that you don’t even need the term “Son” at all to determine Mary is the Mother God because John 1:14 tells us “the Word was made flesh,” and John 1:1 tells us “the Word was God;” thus, Mary is the mother of the Word and so she is the Mother of God anyway, the sad fact is that in the process of Martin’s theologizing he ended up losing the real Jesus. Notice, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity is no longer the Eternal Son! And it gets worse from here, if that is possible! Martin would go on:

The term “Son” itself is a functional term, as is the term “Father” and has no meaning apart from time. The term “Father” incidentally never carries the descriptive adjective “eternal” in Scripture; as a matter of fact, only the Spirit is called eternal (“the eternal Spirit”—Hebrews 9:14), emphasizing the fact that the words Father and Son are purely functional as previously stated.

It would be difficult to overstate the importance of what we are saying here. Jesus revealed to us the essential truth that God exists eternally as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in his inner life. For Martin, God would be father by analogy in relation to the humanity of Christ, but not in the eternal divine relations; hence, he is not the eternal Father. So, not only did Dr. Martin end up losing Jesus, the eternal Son; he lost the Father as well! This compels us to ask the question: Who then is God, the Blessed Trinity, in eternity, according to Dr. Walter Martin and all those who agree with his theology? He is not Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He must be the eternal … Blahthe Word, and the Holy Spirit (Martin did teach Christ to be the Eternal Word, just not the Eternal Son). He would become a father by analogy when he created the universe and again by analogy at the incarnation of the Word and through the adoption of all Christians as “sons of God.” But he would not be the eternal Father. The metaphysical problems begin here and continue to eternity… literally. Let us now summarize Dr. Martin’s teaching and some of the problems it presents:

1. Fatherhood and Sonship would not be intrinsic to God. The Catholic Church understands that an essential aspect of Christ’s mission was to reveal God to us as he is in his inner life as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Jews already understood God to be father by analogy, but they had no knowledge of God as eternal Father in relation to the Eternal Son. In Jesus’ great high priestly prayer in John 17, he declared his Father was Father “before the world was made” and thus, to quote CCC 239, in “an unheard-of sense.” In fact, Christ revealed God’s name as Father. Names in Hebrew culture reveal something about the character of the one named. Thus, he reveals God to be Father, not just that he is like a father. God never becomes Father; he is the eternal Father

2. If Sonship applies only to humanity and time, the “the Son” would also be extrinsic, or outside, if you will, of the Second Divine Person of the Blessed Trinity. Thus, as much as he would have denied it, Dr. Martin effectively creates two persons to represent Christ—one divine and one human. This theology leads to the logical conclusion that the person who died on the cross 2,000 years ago would have been merely a man. If that were so, he would have no power to save us. Scripture reveals Christ as the savior, not merely a delegate of God the savior. He was fully man in order to make fitting atonement for us. He was fully God in order to have the power to save us.

3. This theology completely reduces the revelation of God in the New Covenant that separates Christianity from all religions of the world. Jesus revealed God as he is from all eternity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Dr. Martin reduces this to mere function. Thus, “Father” does not tell us who God is, only what God does. Radical feminists do something similar when they refuse to acknowledge God as “Father.” God becomes reduced to that which he does as “Creator, Redeeemer, and Sanctifier” and int he process where is a truly tragic loss of the knowledge of who God is. In the case of Dr. Walter Martin, it was bad theology that lead to a similar loss.

4. There is a basic metaphysical principle found, for example, in Malachi 3:6, that comes into play here as well: “For I the Lord do not change.” In defense of Dr. Martin, he did seem to realize that one cannot posit change in the divine persons. As stated above, “fatherhood” and “sonship” wold not relate to divinity at all in his way of thinking. Thus, he became a proper Nestorian (though he would never have admitted that) that divides Christ into two persons. And that is bad enough. However, one must be very careful here because when one posits the first person of the Blessed Trinity became the Father, and the second person of the Blessed Trinity became the Son, it becomes very easy to slip into another heresy that would admit change into the divine persons. Later in Behold Your Mother, I employ the case of a modern Protestant apologist who regrettably takes that next step. But you’ll have to get the book to read about that one.

The bottom line here is this: It appears Dr. Walter Martin’s bad Christology led to a bad Mariology. But I argue in Behold Your Mother that if he would have understood Mary as Theotokos, it would have been impossible for him to lose his Christological bearings. The moment the thought of sonship as only applying to humanity in Christ would have arisen, a Catholic Dr. Walter Martin would have known that Mary is Mother of God. He would have lost neither the eternal Son nor the eternal Father because Theotokos would have guarded him from error. The prophetic words of Lumen Gentium 65 immediately come to mind: “Mary… unites in her person and re-echoes the most important doctrines of the faith.” A true Mariology serves as a guarantor against bad Christology.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; christology; mariandoctrine; motherofgod; theology; virginmary
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To: Elsie

Feel like Elijah?


1,581 posted on 01/29/2015 3:49:45 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: terycarl; Elsie

But we know that someone is watching all the time, but that we are free in Christ and don’t have to go back into bondage to roles and regulations, and sacraments and penances to try to appease an angry, short, tempered, vengeful God who’s always looking to zap someone the minute they aren’t perfect.

We have a loving heavenly Father who picks us up, dusts us off, and say, *Let’s try that again.*

RC’s restrictions are self-imposed and then they whine that *It’s not Faaaiiiirrr.* when they think someone is getting away with something they can’t.

Then they issue warnings to others that God never places on them, threatening retribution by the image of God they serve, and not the true God of the Bible.


1,582 posted on 01/29/2015 3:54:19 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: CynicalBear
All based on fiction, fraudulent documents, corrupted scripture, and paganism. I'll pass.

and join a protestant denomination whose beliefs are based on a human perversion of the Caatholic/Christian church

1,583 posted on 01/29/2015 3:57:34 PM PST by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: Mark17
Of course you know some of the things I can now get away with. I do not go to mass, and I get away with it. I do not confess to a priest, and I get away with it. I do not use holy water. I do not pray the rosary. I do not pray to the holy saints. I do not make the sign of the cross. I do not accept the sacraments. I believe Mary was blessed among women, then after Jesus was born, she gave birth to a bunch of kids. All these things I get away with. Can you think of anything else that I now get away with, that I couldn't get away with before?

Hmmm......

I think you have it about covered.

You know what one eats at them the most? It's the *Don't have to go to church* one.

1,584 posted on 01/29/2015 3:57:38 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: terycarl; CynicalBear
and join a protestant denomination whose beliefs are based on a human perversion of the Caatholic/Christian church

Well, seems like that leaves us with Catholics thinking that Scripture is a perversion of the Catholic church.

Well, they're entitled to their opinion.

1,585 posted on 01/29/2015 3:59:58 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Iscool
The Catholics did however come up with their own version of the scriptures by changing a lot of words and adding un-inspired book to them...

In whose opinion???...They went along just fime with ALL Christians reading their words until along came the revolution....

1,586 posted on 01/29/2015 4:04:02 PM PST by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: terycarl; metmom; boatbums; CynicalBear; Elsie; Gamecock; 2nd amendment mama; MamaB
LOL, there you go again. So you are a correctional officer at some so called maximum security juvie joint, if there even is such a thing. You can't pull the wool over my eyes, like you try to do when talking about the RC. I KNOW about corrections. I was a California correctional officer for 25 years, with stops at San Quentin, Duel Vocational Institute, Mule Creek, CMF and Solano. Go ahead, try to tell me what corrections is like. I've been behind the walls, walking the toughest beat in the state, and guess what bro, I survived. Now, to the other issue. I am proud and happy as all get out, that I left that false religious system, for the glorious Kingdom of God. I love to miss mass and never confess to a guy that was a worse dinner than me. I love not praying the rosary, or praying to the holy saints. I love it, and I get away with it, everyday. 🆒 I am not swimming the Tiber anytime soon.
1,587 posted on 01/29/2015 4:08:43 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love will sail forever, bright and shining, strong n free. Like an ark of peace and safety)
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To: 2nd amendment mama
We don't use the excuse of Confession to allow ourselves to do anything we want to all week because the Priest can make it all go away every Saturday

You obviously have no concept whatsoever of how the Sacrament of Penance works....and what you described is not it at all. On the other hand, Protestants seem to think that they can do whatever because Jesus already atoned for whatever they do!!!

1,588 posted on 01/29/2015 4:10:39 PM PST by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: Mark17

God bless you. You saw the light. Do you know that song, “I Saw the Light”.


1,589 posted on 01/29/2015 4:11:36 PM PST by MamaB
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To: terycarl

Mark has more and better experience. Don’t try to outdo him.


1,590 posted on 01/29/2015 4:13:34 PM PST by MamaB
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To: metmom
You know what one eats at them the most? It's the *Don't have to go to church* one.

Yep, it really gets their goat. I love it. Last night we were out preaching the gospel to those of a certain religious persuasion. It is exciting 😇🆒😃

1,591 posted on 01/29/2015 4:17:29 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love will sail forever, bright and shining, strong n free. Like an ark of peace and safety)
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To: Mark17

Good for you, Mark. God bless you.


1,592 posted on 01/29/2015 4:24:22 PM PST by MamaB
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To: terycarl
>>They went along just fime with ALL Christians reading their words until along came the revolution....<<

LOL The Catholic Church executed any who would try to read anything other then their perversion of scripture.

1,593 posted on 01/29/2015 4:27:31 PM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: metmom; Elsie; terycarl
But we know that someone is watching all the time, but that we are free in Christ and don’t have to go back into bondage to roles and regulations, and sacraments and penances to try to appease an angry, short, tempered, vengeful God who’s always looking to zap someone the minute they aren’t perfect.

We have a loving heavenly Father who picks us up, dusts us off, and say, *Let’s try that again.*

    The LORD'S lovingkindnesses indeed never cease, For His compassions never fail. They are new every morning; Great is Your faithfulness. "The LORD is my portion," says my soul, "Therefore I have hope in Him. (Lamentations 3:22-24)

1,594 posted on 01/29/2015 4:28:40 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: terycarl; 2nd amendment mama
You obviously have no concept whatsoever of how the Sacrament of Penance works....and what you described is not it at all.

Sure we know what it is. It's bondage to a series of works that one has to do in order to merit forgiveness that they think a priest has the ability to confer on them.

On the other hand, Protestants seem to think that they can do whatever because Jesus already atoned for whatever they do!!!

Which simply goes to show that for all the times you and others have been told otherwise, it STILL hasn't sunk in.

And yes, Jesus has already atoned for all the sin in my life. The sin that I've committed and the sin I've yet to commit. It's ALL forgiven in one glorious transaction where He exchanged His righteousness for my sin, once and for all time, and God transferred me into the kingdom of the Son He loves, where I am seated in the heavenly places with Him, canceling the record of (sin) debt that stood against me, and then sealed me with His promised Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of my inheritance until I acquire possession of it.

Nothing I can do or not do can change my standing in Christ.

1,595 posted on 01/29/2015 4:31:41 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: MamaB
God bless you. You saw the light. Do you know that song, “I Saw the Light”

Affrimative Mama, and now I've got a mansion, just over the hilltop, in that bright land where we'll never grow old. Sound familiar? 😇

1,596 posted on 01/29/2015 4:32:07 PM PST by Mark17 (Calvary's love will sail forever, bright and shining, strong n free. Like an ark of peace and safety)
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To: terycarl

Then, the people woke up to the truth, thankfully. Many were killed by the Catholics for wanting to have their own copy of the Bible. Real Christian like.


1,597 posted on 01/29/2015 4:33:06 PM PST by MamaB
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To: Mark17

My word. I grew up singing that song. I had not thought of it in a long time. I loved listening to The Blackwood Brothers, The Chuck Wagon Gang, etc. I got to meet James Blackwood when they came to my church years ago. He was a really nice man. Thanks for the memories.


1,598 posted on 01/29/2015 4:37:56 PM PST by MamaB
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To: Elsie

When I said mediator, I meant advocate. Our Lady pleads for us. When I said mentor, I meant Our Lady serves as an example of selfless devotion and faith in God.


1,599 posted on 01/29/2015 4:39:25 PM PST by deputytess (Freedom is in peril. Defend it with all your might.)
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To: Iscool

I’m not going to post on this thread anymore. I worship the Trinity and I love Our Lady. Take it as you like.
God bless us all.


1,600 posted on 01/29/2015 4:42:58 PM PST by deputytess (Freedom is in peril. Defend it with all your might.)
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