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Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?
self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

Posted on 12/14/2014 11:57:21 AM PST by ealgeone

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; blessedvirginmary; catholic; mary; mystery; mysterybabylon; prayer; rcinventions; vanities; vanity; worship
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To: DuncanWaring

Because he had a Baptism of Desire.

Some people will call it a Baptism of Blood.

Both are just a legit as a Baptism with water and the Holy Spirit.


161 posted on 12/14/2014 5:06:43 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: verga; ealgeone; Salvation; NYer; Mrs. Don-o
Why do protestants, like liberals, attack the things they fear or can’t understand?

Say what?

Using the Word to point out false teachings of the catholic church is an attack?

162 posted on 12/14/2014 5:08:52 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: Arthur McGowan
Innocently, you say so...but Goddess worship has an uncanny way of working itself back into the worship of our Lord.

Please know...I am NOT talking about Mary but those demons who masquerade as Mary.

They existed long before Mary, Joseph, and Jesus (well, not before Jesus).

Demons named Arstarte, Diana, Semiramis, etc.

163 posted on 12/14/2014 5:10:07 PM PST by RoosterRedux
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To: editor-surveyor
“Christian practices” essentially ended early in the second century, as noted by Irenaeus, and HIppolytus in their writings.

This is when the paganism of human nature began to form nicolaitan churches on a grand scale. Constantine’s ‘church’ is simply the most grotesque example. Its all in the Bible, where Yehova condemned it. ( for catholics, that means “Biblical.”)

Jesus promised to remain with His Church until the end of time, preserving it from error. So your position is that His promise fizzled out at the beginning of the Second Century. So your position is that Jesus was a liar.

164 posted on 12/14/2014 5:11:05 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: ealgeone; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; redleghunter; Springfield Reformer; ...
4352 proskynéō (from 4314 /prós, "towards" and kyneo, "to kiss") – properly, to kiss the ground when prostrating before a superior; t

While on rare occasions men of God received the obeisance of bowing down by brethren, yet never in the NT, nowhere does any believer bow in praise and and pray to such in Heaven, as if they could we heavenly intercessors btwn God and man, which only Christ is stated to be, (1Tim 2:5; Heb. 11:25) and could hear virtually infinite amounts of prayer

As said before, one would have a hard time in Bible times explaining kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, and as having Divine powers and glory, and making offerings and beseeching such for Heavenly help, directly accessed by mental prayer.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?


165 posted on 12/14/2014 5:11:25 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: ealgeone
For the record:

It should be kept in mind that my objection is not to Mary being honored as the holy chosen vessel to bring forth Christ, but to the excess ascriptions, appelations, exaltation, and adoration (and the manner of exegesis behind it), ascribed to the Catholic Mary, whether officially or by Catholics (with implicit sanction of authority). And which presumes that bowing down to a statute and attributing to the person it represent attributes and glory that are uniquely ascribed to God/Christ in Scripture, including the power to hear in Heaven incessant multitudinous mental prayers addressed to them from earth and respond to them, and imploring such for heavenly aid, would be understood and vindicated as merely being "hyperdulia," and not "latria" (which Rome states is the manner of adoration reserved for God).

As making that distinction itself is presumptuous, the Scriptures do not sanction religiously bowing down to any statue in supplication, nor supplies even one single prayer to anyone in Heaven but the Lord (crying "Abba, Father," Gal. 4:6; not "Mama, Mother"), nor in instructions on who to pray to ("our Father who art in Heaven," not "our Mother").

Note that many Catholic Marian attributions much parallel even that of Christ:

For in the the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,

Mary was a holy, virtuous instrument of God, but of whom Scripture says relatively little, while holy fear ought to restrain ascribing positions, honor, glory and powers to a mortal that God has not revealed as given to them, and or are only revealed as being possessed by God Himself. But like as the Israelites made an instrument of God an object of worship, (Num. 21:8,9; 2Kg. 18:4) Catholics have magnified Mary far beyond what is written and warranted and even allowed, based on what is in Scripture.

In addition, although (technically) Mary is not to be worshiped in the same sense that God is worshiped, yet the distinctions between devotion to Mary and the worship of God are quite fine, and much due to the psychological appeal of a heavenly mother (especially among those for whom Scripture is not supreme), then the historical practice of Catholics has been to exalt Mary above that which is written. As the Catholic Encyclopedia states, "By the sixteenth century, as evidenced by the spiritual struggles of the Reformers, the image of Mary had largely eclipsed the centrality of Jesus Christ in the life of believers." (Robert C. Broderick, ed., The Catholic Encyclopedia, revised and updated; NY: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1987, pp.32,33)

The practice of praying to departed saints and Mary was one that developed, helped by pagan influences, for Scripture provides no example of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven by the Lord, and reveals that doing otherwise was a practice of pagans, including to the “Queen of Heaven.” (Jer. 44:17,18,19,25). The Catholic Encyclopedia admits that a further reinforcement of Marian devotion, “was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. This at least is the common opinion among scholars, though it would perhaps be dangerous to speak too positively. Evidence regarding the popular practice of the early centuries is almost entirely lacking...,” (Catholic Encyclopedia > Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary) Yet, as expected, it imagines this practice came from the apostles and NT church, but which never exampled or instructed it, and instead showed that the believer has immediate access to God in the Divine Christ, (Heb. 10:19), who is the all sufficient and immediate intercessor between God (the Father) and man. (Heb. 2:17,18; 4:15,16) To the glory of God

Catholic ascriptions to Mary (More can be seen at this link (The up mark ^ points to the last referenced source.).

We must never adore her; that is for God alone. But otherwise we cannot honor her to excess, because it is not possible to overestimate the privileges God gave her in making her His own Mother. “What the church teaches,” by Monsignor J.D. Conway/ Imprimatur of Ralph L. Hayes,, New York; Harper and Brothers; 1962 (He also states, “It seems manifest that Christians simply adapted the art of pagan Rome to their religious needs:” p. 218)

Pope Pius XII asserts in an address on the Queenship of Mary, “after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe....In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognise that they are all brothers. Receive, O most sweet mother, our humble supplication above all obtained for us, that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are all beautiful, O Mary, you are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honour of our people.’ Catholic Culture, Prayer of Pope Pius XII, Composed for the Marian Year, 1954

The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help...How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as ‘our Lady, our Mediatrix,’ — (St. Tharasius, Orat. in Praesentatione) ‘the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.’ (On Off. Graec., 8 Dec.).” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm

When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.... — St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246. http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM

Mary can be declared by the Church to be not only the “helpmate” of that Second Divine Person — Co-Redemptrix in Salvation, Mediatrix in grace — but actually “like unto Him.”...when she acts, it is also He who acts; and that if her intervention be not accepted, neither is His.... Her position as "the first of all creatures, the most acceptable child of God, the nearest and dearest to him," (Cardinal Newman); As Mother of God, says Lepicier, Mary contracts a certain affinity with the Father; · The pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father, which has fitted her to pour out into the world the everlasting light which issues from that loving Father.... He has no children but by her, and communicates no graces but by her...and through her alone does He dispense His favours and His gifts. A Marian Synthesis; http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/msynthesis.htm

Mary is the sealed fountain and the faithful spouse of the Holy Spirit where only he may enter...She is the sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity...the holy City of God, the greatness of the power which she wields over one who is God cannot be conceived...her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands...because it is always humble and conformed to his will, the dispenser of all he possesses...What immeasurable greatness...Mary has authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven...God gave her the power and the mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride....all the angels in heaven unceasingly call out to her...They greet her countless times each day with the angelic greeting, "Hail, Mary", while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests...The whole world is filled with her glory,... Moreover, we should repeat after the Holy Spirit, "All the glory of the king's daughter is within".... Whatever desires the patriarchs may have cherished, whatever entreaties the prophets and saints of the Old Law may have had for 4,000 years to obtain that treasure, it was Mary alone who merited it and found grace before God by the power of her prayers and the perfection of her virtues." — St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, miscl. http://www.legionofmarytidewater.com/docs/true.doc

According to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus...[who] does not at once, answer anyone who invokes him, but only does so after just judgment. But if the name of his mother Mary is invoked, her merits intercede so that he is answered even if the merits of him who invoked her do not deserve it.” Through her “the elements are renewed, the netherworld is healed, the demons are trodden underfoot, men are saved and angels are restored.” — Andrew Taylor, “Three medieval manuscripts and their readers,” University of Pennsylvania press; page 173

In "Glories of Mary" by Liguori, whose writings were declared free from anything meriting censure by Pope Gregory XVI (1839) in the bull of his canonization, he teaches,

He who is under the protection of Mary will be saved; he who is not will be lost . . . O immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection, and therefore we have recourse, to thee alone, and we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil. - . . Thou (Mary) art my only hope. . . . Lady in heaven, we have but one advocate, and that is thyself, and thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation ... My Queen and my Advocate with thy Son, whom I dare not approach “ (From Judge Fairly, p. 5).

Richard of St. Laurence encourages sinners to have recourse to this great name, "because it alone will suffice to cure them of all their evils;" and "there is no disorder, however malignant, that does not immediately yield to the power of the name of Mary." — St. Alphonsus de Liguori http://www.doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/AL.html

The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. — Iucunda Semper Expectatione, Pope Leo XIII, 1894

But by her compassion for her Divine Son she had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin. It was not only during the Passion that Jesus and Mary suffered for our sins, for all their lives that heartrending vision was before them in every detail, and never for a moment forgotten. The Reign of Mary, Vol. 40; Issue 48

"We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone. — Ten Series of Meditations on the Mystery of the Rosary,” by John Ferraro, Nihil Obstat John C. Hogan, Diocesan Censor; Imprimatur (1) - Richard Cardinal Cushing Daughters of St.Paul, 1964).

"After God, it is impossible to think of anything greater than His Mother." p. 83^

..to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood...Next to God, she deserves the highest praise....no creature, can ever be compared to her:"To what shall I compare thee, or to whom shall I liken thee, O daughter of Jerusalem." (Lam. 2:13) [another verse taken out of context, as it refers to the affliction of Jewish mothers in general due to the judgment upon Jerusalem.] http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-098.html

...all graces of the Precious Blood come through Mary. — http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/virgin-eucharist.htm

"O Christian who comest full of faith to receive the Bread of life, eat It worthily, and remember that It was fashioned out of Mary's pure blood." Mary can quite rightfully beckon to us and speak to us in the words of the inspired prophet, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5).

"The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse. This is why she is the mediatrix of all graces given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose." Manteau-Bonamy, Immaculate Conception, 91; F.X. Durrwell, The Holy Spirit of God (Cincinnati: Servant Books, 2006), 183-185.

..."Limitless is the difference between God's servants and His Mother...Your honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation; your greatness places you above the angels...from her union with Christ she attains a radiant eminence transcending that of any other creature; from her union with Christ she receives the royal right to dispose of the treasures of the Divine Redeemer's Kingdom;... she intercedes powerfully for us with a mother's prayers, obtains what she seeks, and cannot be refused....Theologians and preachers...must beware of unfounded opinions and exaggerated expressions which go beyond the truth." [an in-credible injunction if Scripture is to be held as the Truth, as going beyond the Truth us exactly what Pope Pius XII is doing. But Scripture is not the supreme authority for Rome, but is made into a servant for her purposes, and Truth to Rome can be whatever she autocratically declares.] — Ad Caeli Reginam, Encyclical of Pope Pius XII; http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam_en.html

..."she is Mother of her Creator...through Whom the Holy Trinity is sanctified." "...she mediates between God and men." " "Run through all creation in your thought and see if there be one equal or superior to the Holy Virgin, Mother of God." (Works taken from "Letter to the Rev. E. B. Pusey" contained in Newman's "Difficulties of Anglicans" Volume II); http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/newman-mary.asp

166 posted on 12/14/2014 5:11:44 PM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: ealgeone

Nancy Pelosi (prominent pseudo-Catholic) talks a good talk about “the Word” also.

We can both agree that she doesn’t mean a bit of it ... either.


167 posted on 12/14/2014 5:12:07 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Salvation
Where is the Vanity marker at the end of the title line?

The post was clearly labeled as "self". That means me. It doesn't point to a blog so I'm not trying to get any hits.

Are catholics so afraid of what was posted they have to resort to trying to silence the messenger.

Holder and Obama would be proud.

Last time I checked this was FREE REPUBLIC.

168 posted on 12/14/2014 5:13:48 PM PST by ealgeone
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To: daniel1212
I know you try to speak for the Lord...but can you be a little more succinct.

He certainly was!

169 posted on 12/14/2014 5:15:47 PM PST by RoosterRedux
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To: ealgeone
Mary's Song of Praise: The Magnificat ... Luke 1: 46-55

“My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has looked on the humble estate of his servant. For behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

170 posted on 12/14/2014 5:15:55 PM PST by Servant of the Cross (the Truth will set you free)
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To: ealgeone; Gamecock; metmom; daniel1212
Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

In a word...NO.

We are to worship none but God Almighty. There is no intercessor between God an man except for Jesus Christ.

It IS Mariolatry. It is that indeed.

Hoss

171 posted on 12/14/2014 5:16:16 PM PST by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: daniel1212
as Catholics (adding error to error) believe Christ gave His actual flesh and blood to be eaten, ...

That is not what Catholics believe.

If you believe that, you're a willful believer in a lie you've been told. If you don't believe that, you're a liar yourself.

172 posted on 12/14/2014 5:17:05 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Salvation

Wow, just wonderful.


173 posted on 12/14/2014 5:24:27 PM PST by A CA Guy ( God Bless America, God Bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: longfellowsmuse

People post abusive rants against what they suspect is true. They want to suppress the voice of their conscience. Protestants feel the need to bash Catholicism because their consciences are troubled. Protestant converts to Catholicism don’t feel a need to bash Protestantism because their consciences are not troubled.

This is why abusive rants against Catholicism are a dime a dozen, and abusive rants against Protestantism are rare to the point of non-existent.

This is why tens of thousands of books by “ex-Popish priests” and “escaped Popish nuns” have been published, while books by Protestant converts to Catholicism bashing Protestantism as “satanic,” “demonic,” “idolatrous,” etc., simply do not exist.

Protestants convert to Catholicism because they have found the truth. Catholics convert to Protestantism because they want to marry a divorcee or they want to use The Pill.


174 posted on 12/14/2014 5:25:00 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: ealgeone

Q: The real question is, Where is Luther’s doctrine of Sola Scriptura in the Bible?

A: Christ gave us the example of referring to Scripture when He said...”It is written....”

As always, when a Protestant is asked where the doctrine of “Scripture ALONE” is found in Scripture, he ignores the word “ALONE.” This is necessary because the doctrine of “Scripture ALONE” is found NOWHERE in Scripture.

For this reason, the doctrine of “Scripture ALONE” is CONTRARY to Scripture. It is a man-made, unScriptural doctrine. It is self-refuting.


175 posted on 12/14/2014 5:31:09 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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To: Arthur McGowan

That was beautiful, close to perfect, you should write for hard left publications, their readers love that sort of creative packaging of the views and people that they disagree with.


176 posted on 12/14/2014 5:31:51 PM PST by ansel12
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To: Arthur McGowan; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; CynicalBear; daniel1212; ...
Catholicism don’t feel a need to bash Protestantism because their consciences are not troubled.

Just..... wow.....

The irony abounds.......

Our memories go back further than the last five minutes. Like to last night.......

177 posted on 12/14/2014 5:32:09 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Arthur McGowan
This is why abusive rants against Catholicism are a dime a dozen, and abusive rants against Protestantism are rare to the point of non-existent.

FOTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!

178 posted on 12/14/2014 5:32:58 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Arthur McGowan
People post abusive rants against what they suspect is true.

Abusive rants.

And then you post an excellent example of one.

Good work.....

179 posted on 12/14/2014 5:34:17 PM PST by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: .45 Long Colt
Why waste your time praying to a dead sinner who needed the same grace for salvation that you need?

Now there's an honest, sincere, non-loaded question if I ever saw one.

180 posted on 12/14/2014 5:42:58 PM PST by Arthur McGowan
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