The Bible teaches me to have discernment. Your mileage may vary ... you may be incapable of discerning the scams of the demons.

Just because Smith was a sinner that doesn’t make all Mormons unworthy.

I have not and do not intend to address that issue. Your effort to put words and notions in that I have not posted is duly noted. Nice try ... you need more practice.

Oh my, honey, that is not exactly what I had in mind... I was thinking more along the lines of the NY skyline or the Powder River Basin mining community... something more...mechanical...in nature. ;>)

Just because Smith was a sinner that doesn’t make all Mormons unworthy.

Just because Smith was a False Prophet; MormonISM is a heresy.

And Harry Reid’s take on this is?

It mattereth not.

Ask yourselves — how does persecution start? Does it jump to violence, or begin with words?

Well...

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses

, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

I may be wrong, but escaping religious persecution used to mean something in America.

In Salem?

..."God-ordained" (by implication -- not by any divine mandate in Scripture)...

It says so!

Right HERE!!!

HATEful Bigotry Alert!!!

Polygamy: How it all got Started

Joe: Hey Emma! Guess what!?

Emma: You KNOW I hate these guessing games! What is it, Dear?

Joe: I heard a voice, probably the Lord, tell me I must take other wives.

Emma: WHAT!? You ding bat! Don't you KNOW what our precious BOOK says? After all; YOU are the one that translated it!

Joe: Books; schmooks. All I know is I've been COMMANDED to take other wives and you are to OBEY ME!!!

Emma: "Though shalt NOT commit ADULTERY!!!"

Joe: Silly Woman! You KNOW better than to take things out of CONTEXT!!!

...and the rest is HISTORY...

THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI

CHAPTER 2

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

Or even HERE:

1 Timothy 3:2-3
2. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3. not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.

1 Timothy 3:12
A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.

Titus 1:6
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.

Emma: That's IT! I'm LEAVING your sorry *!!!

Can't you EVER get straight what GOD tells you???

Doctrines and Covenants 49:16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one ^awife, and they twain shall be ^bone flesh, and all this that the ^cearth might answer the end of its creation;

Joe: DARN you Emma; you were TOLD to accept this!! Wait!!! I hear a voice again!!!

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 132

  51–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

  51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to ^aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

  52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, ^areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

  53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been ^afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

  54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and ^acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be ^bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

  55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ^ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of ^beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

  56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid ^aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to ^brejoice.

What religion are you that is so perfect that you feel no shame in judging Smith’s character?

What is it so imperfect about Christianity that you feel Mormonism adds something that it is lacking?

Well, me too I guess but although I did not know it was a big secret I didn’t know we were required to learn it all unless we are Mormon.

Unless?

It appears that NON-Mormons know more about MormonISM than Mormons do!

...aaaaand my first thought was that getting shot to death by a lynch mob probably came as a welcome relief.

Ha haaaaa! Good stuff. I never was much of a fan of the Kirstie Allie years but that was a pretty funny scene.

Thread Just posted: LDS.ORG Essay on Nauvoo Polygamy: What did Readers Expect? [LDS apologist on church admissions]

I allowed this lds apologist's blog to have his own voice...and then I offered an in-depth point by point commentary ... on the whole thing...

Just because Smith was a sinner that doesn’t make all Mormons unworthy.

"Unworthy" of what? godhood? ('Cause isn't that what at least married temple Mormons are pursuing?)

The Mormons I have met seemed to be very fine people. What religion are you that is so perfect that you feel no shame in judging Smith’s character?

Well, here's an interesting thought:

If Joseph Smith committed banking fraud...and if Joseph Smith committed massive spiritual fraud...then we would expect that seed to be planted within the Mormon church...and to germinate widely.

Joseph Smith's banking scam: Joseph Smith's Mormon Banking Scam

Let's simply review affinity fraud by Mormons for ONLY a 40-month window of March '09-->Mid-summer 2012

Lds members have fleeced over 1 & 1/2 billion from fellow Mormons the past few years alone! Guess what? They initially didn't regret "doing business" with them, either!!!
(2010 Source puts it at over $1.4 billion...and MORE has been uncovered since then!) : Mormons Now Losing Billions to Affinity Fraud

Can you fill me in any other religious sect that has less than 2% of the overall population (1.7%) -- that has launched at least $1.4 billion worth of fraud schemes vs. fellow sect members the past two or three years?

If you only have time to click on one article link below...read this one: JOHN L. SMITH: Thieves in the temple: How 'affinity fraud' hurts LDS church members
Source: Las Vegas Review-Journal, Sept. 12, 2010 Be sure to read the comments of FBI special agent Cameron Saxey (who is Lds)...the article mentions how the Utah jurisdictional Securities Fraud Task Force was working on 100+ cases...meaning that $1.4 billion total doesn't tell it all!

The sad individual accounts [Indeed: Pray for the victims, most Lds]:

* All in the Mormon Family Mortgage Fraud [Re: Idaho fraud]
Source: Conservative Babylon.com, June 27, 2012

* Episode Detail: The Mormon Madoff - American Greed: Scams, Scoundrels and Scandals
Source: TV Guide.com re: series American Greed: Scams, Scoundrels, and Scandals, June 20, 2012

* Former LDS bishop gets jail, probation for massive fraud
Source: Provo Herald, June 7, 2012

* LDS Bishop Pleads Guilty To Fraud
Source: Kutv.com, June 7, 2012

* Utah investors caught up in alleged $170M fraud: SEC says 2 men committed fraud as they raised $170M to build Caribbean resorts, and that 250 of the 1,700 alleged victims are from Utah
Source: Salt Lake Tribune, May 31, 2012

* Beware of affinity fraud ‘predators’ who exploit trust, LDS spokesman warns
Source: Fraud College.org, April 2, 2012

* Former LDS bishop charged with fraud, pleads not guilty
Connecticut Criminal Defense Blog, March 29, 2012

* Former Mormon Bishop In Trumbull Charged With Investor Fraud
Source: Hartford Courant, March 27, 2012

* The LDS Church Issues a Strong Position on Affinity Fraud
Source: Utah Securities Fraud.com, March 7, 2012

* Affinity Fraud Called a Destructive Crime at Conference
Source: Lds.org, Feb. 20, 2012

* Church Representative to Address Fraud College [From the official Lds Web site]
Source: Lds.org, Feb. 15, 2012

* Affinity Fraud statement
Source: Official Mormon Newsroom.org, Undated (Early 2012)

* Father, son used Mormon connections to commit $220M Ponzi scheme (Utah case)
Source: Mormon church-owned KSL.com, Dec. 16, 2011

* Former LDS bishop cons elderly man out of life savings, police say
Source: Provo Daily Herald, Oct. 19, 2011

* Tag archives @Utahsecuritiesfraud.com: LDS Church

* Provo councilman Steve Turley charged with felonies [LDS High Council Member]
Source: Provo Herald, July 27, 2011

* Feds arrest St. George business man, philanthropist for mail fraud
Source: Mormon-church owned KSL.com, June 11, 2011

* Former LDS leader charged in fraud against Ute football coach, others
Source: Salt Lake Tribune, June 8, 2011

* Suspected Mormon Con Artist Pleading Guilty to $78M Scam
Source: Streetsweeper.org, May 31, 2011

* Mormon Madoff? Source: Financial Fraud Law.com, May 27, 2011

* A Fraud Played Out on Family and Friends
Source: New York Times, May 26, 2011

* St. George investor ordered to jail [ex-Lds bishop]
Source: MidUtahRadio.com, April 15, 2011

* Using trust to steal (Utah affinity fraud)
Source: Ogden (UT) Standard Examiner, Feb. 3, 2011

* JOHN L. SMITH: Thieves in the temple: How 'affinity fraud' hurts LDS church members
Source: Las Vegas Review-Journal, Sept. 12, 2010

* Local political gadfly arrested for exploiting elderly woman
Source: Provo Daily Herald, May 4, 2010

* Preying on the faithful: Though Mormons often victims, LDS church skips fraud-prevention event
Source: Salt Lake Tribune, May 2, 2010

* Kaneohe swindler is sentenced
Source: Honolulu Star-Bulletin, April 6, 2010

* Investors with troubled firm have Mormon ties
Source: Austin American Statesman, Jan. 16, 2010

* Man Who Defrauded Fellow Church Goer Pleads Guilty
Source: www.connect2utah.com (KUTV) Jan. 7, 2010

* Lindon Man Accused of Trying to Kill Witnesses to Alleged Scam
Source: MidUtahRadio.com, Nov. 19, 2009

* KSL 5 News investigates affinity fraud
Source: KSL.com Nov. 9, 2009

* Mormon victims are caught up in $50M scam to sell gold bullion
Salt Lake Tribune, Sept. 18, 2009

* LDS Church returned $200K in Southwick Tithing
Source: AP, Sept. 14, 2009

* Merriman's church donations may be tained [Momon Ponzi schemer's tithe monies ill-gotten?]
Source: Denver Post, April 24, 2009

* Man Who Defrauded Fellow Church Goer Pleads Guilty
Source: Fox News, April 8, 2009

* Calif. Man Charged with $40 million Ponzi scheme
Source: AP, March 20, 2009

The bottom line here is that you would expect a church that has 2% of the nation's population to have about 2% of affinity fraud cases -- even if they were as criminal as the atheists and agnostics! [You would expect them to have less than 2% if there was a true higher moral standard at operation here]. You don't expect cases involving $one and a half BILLION!

So, IoW...first you defend Joseph Smith's character...
...and then you extrapolate from that people auditioning for godhood are "fine people" (and 'YEAH!' YA BETTER BE!' if you're auditioning for divine competition!)
...and then when I address your question about "perfection" ... focusing not even on "perfection" but simple criminality...
...ya wanna change the subject & talk about Jews now?

Well, I'm sure you've met many "fine (Jewish) people," too right?

So, hey...go ahead & generalize away on every tribe, be it ethnic, religious, or socio-political (like I've met several "fine people" liberals...or several "fine people" Democrats).

(Now what point does any of the above make again?)

*****************

So...let me talk about a specific group of Jews from Jesus' incarnational days...perhaps including one or some who "bought" out Judas to commit betrayal vs. Christ.

Question for you: Did Jesus ever overtly compliment the Pharisees?

Answer? Yes!

Per Matthew 5:20, we see Jesus giving a great compliment to the outward "assets" of legalistic Pharisees...telling people that unless their righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees & the teachers of the law, "you will certainly NOT enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matt. 5:20).

Now that was a tremendous compliment. But you see, it wasn't meant to be a complete profile of them.

We find Jesus' words in Matthew 23...giving an internal assessment of the Pharisees:

25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

You see the parallel I am presenting here?

Here you wanted to focus only on the externals of the legalistic group of the day.

But what does Christ do? He acknowledges those fine externals; but He isn't fooled by them.

You see, anybody -- Mormon or non-Mormon, Jew or non-Jew, Pharisee or non-Pharisee -- seeking to try to change God's mind about who they are inwardly by doing good works in order to get to heaven has a message from Jesus they need to be aware of:

“Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice… 7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. (John 10:1-3, 7-9)

Jesus Himself is the Way (John 14:6); and only knowing the true Jesus is eternal life (John 17:3)

Then you refuse to answer my question, see #143.

(143 was written by MHGinTN)