Catholics, the Real Liberals

The American Conservative ^ | October 18, 2014 | Rod Dreher

[Alex Murphy]

Reader Marko sends in this FiveThirtyEight analysis showing that on social issues, especially homosexuality, Catholics are far more likely to be liberal than other Christians, and even Americans in general Excerpts:

In the U.S, the General Social Survey, which is conducted by the research organization NORC at the University of Chicago, has been asking about divorce and gay rights since the early 1970s, and about cohabitation since 1994 (typically at least every two years). At my request, GSS director Tom W. Smith sent data, broken down by religion, for half a dozen questions. In their answers, American Catholics consistently have shown themselves to be more tolerant of divorce, gay rights and unmarried cohabitation than have American Protestants and Americans overall — especially in recent years.

More, from an international perspective:

In general, the higher a share of a country’s residents are Catholic, the higher percentage of residents express tolerance toward divorce and towards gays. The effect isn’t huge, but it’s consistent.

I think most conservative Catholics intuit this, which accounts partly for their anxiety over the prospect of Rome’s waffling. They know that they are minorities within their own church, and they grieve over the possibility that the Church itself may undercut their convictions.

The Pew Center finds that an overwhelming number of US Catholics aged 18 to 29 accept homosexuality (85 percent) and support same-sex marriage (75 percent). More worryingly for conservative Catholics, when the question is asked of weekly massgoers, who are by definition more likely to be involved in the faith and in their parish, the number of overall pro-SSM Catholics is an astonishing 45 percent. Only 44 percent of weekly massgoers support the Church’s teaching, which is to oppose same-sex marriage. The last 11 percent presumably don’t know how they feel. Given the strong cultural currents moving toward full acceptance of gay marriage, there is no reason to believe that when they do make their minds up, that all, or even most, of those undecided Catholics will break for the Church’s position. In fact, given that Pew’s analysis doesn’t break out the weekly massgoers by age group, it is likely that the opposition to SSM is heavily weighted toward the seniors, a group that is literally dying out.

So, is it the case that the Catholic Church has to liberalize on these issues to attract disaffected Catholics? I wouldn’t say so at all. In a survey published in March, Pew polled American Catholics on their thoughts about Pope Francis. Money graf:

But despite the pope’s popularity and the widespread perception that he is a change for the better, it is less clear whether there has been a so-called “Francis effect,” a discernible change in the way American Catholics approach their faith. There has been no measurable rise in the percentage of Americans who identify as Catholic. Nor has there been a statistically significant change in how often Catholics say they go to Mass. And the survey finds no evidence that large numbers of Catholics are going to confession or volunteering in their churches or communities more often.

So, this is the dilemma the Pope and the bishops face: Western nations (North and South America, and Europe) are liberalizing radically on homosexuality, and so are many Catholics. But there is no evidence that the liberalized attitudes symbolized (rightly or wrongly) by Pope Francis are making any difference in the participation of Catholics in the life of the Church. In other words, the Catholic Church is not regaining liberals it has lost, or who have drifted away from engagement with the faith. At the same time, Rome runs the very real risk of alienating the orthodox core that remains faithful to its teachings. Where will that leave the Church?

This is not to say that the Roman church doesn’t need to develop a better set of pastoral practices regarding divorce and homosexuality. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn’t. The question shouldn’t be off limits. But as the controversies coming out of the Synod in this past week have demonstrated, the Pope and his men are playing with fire. One way or another, the Catholic Church, like all Christian churches, is going to experience significant decline in the West in the decades to come. The Church will, as Pope Benedict XVI predicted, be smaller. No doubt about it. The children of today’s Christian progressives will likely be tomorrow’s secularists. The future of Christianity in the West depends on the orthodox and their families. It is very hard to get religious progressives to see this, but there it is. If the Pope isn’t careful, he could suppress and alienate those who are the most faithful to the Church, without any gain whatsoever.

That said, as these polls reveal, the ocean between Rome and the United States is not just the one called the Atlantic.

[Gamecock]

We get Joel Osteen...lol

Got that covered too!

Keyword: YBPDLN

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

"No it doesn't because *official* church doctrine is totally meaningless when there's no action to back up the words. The Catholic church shows what it TRULY believes by what it does, not by what it claims, just like everyone else in the world."

Thats like saying the Constitution is a living document. No matter what people say, do, enact, the concept of United States outlined by the Constitution remains. The Catholic Church is the same -- Even were there no faith left on earth (Lk 18:8), the truth contained in the deposit of faith remains the truth.

[ealgeone]

Guess you’ll be heading to confession for that 7th grade remark.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

Think about what provoked it -- asking on FR no less, "do you vote democrat?"

In other words -- "Do you support abortion, gay crap, forced redistribution, crippling taxes, disarmament, "hate speak" tribunals, agenda 21, and open borders?"

No reply could possibly be as insulting or vile as the question.

[x]

Was this commissioned by the guy here who's always going on and on about Catholics and Mormons? Blessedly, I have forgotten his name, but he'll show up here sooner or later.

The support of 18-29 year old Catholics for gay marriage isn't in line with the opinions of others in that age group of other religions.

Catholics are concentrated on highly urbanized states and their views aren't that different from those of their (Mainline) Protestant neighbors.

Before Vatican II it was very different. This is a case of Catholics finally assimilating to the opinions of the (secular and Mainline Protestant) culture after decades of being chastised for their "backwardness," and finding themselves attacked by people who really weren't on the scene for all those years.

[sasportas]

What’s the beef? You and Democrat Alice Lundergrun Grimes in the Kentucky race for senate were asked the same sort of question. And with similar reactions.

I shake your hand on being opposed to, “abortion, gay crap, forced redistribution, crippling taxes, disarmament, “hate speak” tribunals, agenda 21, and open borders,” as most FReepers are.

However, you must be bucking the tide in the RCC to do so.

I can’t help but wonder how difficult it must be for such strong conservatives as yourself to coeexist with all those liberals. You should “come out from among them,” like the scripture says, and fellowship with good strong Protestant conservatives, you’d think you had died and gone to heaven.

[ealgeone]

Keep it classy is all I’m suggesting.

[metmom]

And from RC’s favorite book of the Bible no less.

[redgolum]

I’m Lutheran. We got Garrison Keller. Not sure how we drew that card

[redgolum]

On of these days, the Catholics will stop blaming their problems on non Catholic churches. If it isn’t the protestants, it is the orthodox. If not them, the free masons.

There was synod that just concluded where the Pope was saying nice things about gays, and it was blamed on the Protestants.

We all have issues, because we are all fallen. Stop complaining, start fixing

[metmom]

Some where I read that by blame shifting we lose the power to change ourselves.

It’s a sad state of affairs the the church which calls itself the one true church and boasts about how the gates of hell won’t prevail against it, blame shifts all it’s problem onto someone else, as if it’s the victim in this world.

Too bad they don’t know the over coming power of Jesus Christ.

[aimhigh]

I guess it burns you people that the Catholic Church is the only Church that doctrinally opposes the decadence of modern world.

Hogwash. I watched the legislative hearings in Oregon when the Democrats pushed through gay unions. The Catholic church asked for one tweak in the bill to protect themselves, and then said, "We don't oppose the bill, as we are not in the business of descrimination."

It was Protestants who had the guts to testify against the bill.

[x]

On of these days, the Catholics will stop blaming their problems on non Catholic churches.

I was responding to an article that appears to put a lot of blame on the Catholic church for Catholics following the prevailing norms in the wider culture, the norms of modern Western society. The title "Catholics, the Real Liberals" does give that impression.

I just wanted to point out that Catholics share the values of the larger society, and that it wasn't so very long ago when (mainstream or liberal) Protestants used to attack Catholics for holding on to older values and ways of thinking.

Catholics decided to assimilate to secular culture on their own (or they drifted into it). They can't blame anyone else for it, and the modern secular West is as much Catholic as Protestant, but surely one can note the irony of history here.

We all have issues, because we are all fallen.

Agreed.

[Wyrd bið ful aræd]

"I can’t help but wonder how difficult it must be for such strong conservatives as yourself to coeexist with all those liberals. You should “come out from among them,” like the scripture says, and fellowship with good strong Protestant conservatives, you’d think you had died and gone to heaven."

If it were that easy I'd have done so years ago. I had essentially several years ago, but I believe that the Catholic Church is the church Christ founded. With that in mind I cannot just jump ship.