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The 'Pope Francis Effect': The war on conservative Catholics in New York
FoxNews ^ | August 12, 2014 | Adam Shaw

Posted on 08/12/2014 3:09:02 PM PDT by TradicalRC

When Cardinal Bergoglio was elected pope in 2013, many traditional Catholics were wary. Recently, their pessimism is being justified as "The Francis Effect" makes itself felt across the world and in America, most notably in the Archdiocese of New York.

So-called "traditional" Catholics prefer to attend the Mass as it was celebrated before and during the Second Vatican Council (1962-5), before the liturgy was radically reformed in 1969.

The Tridentine Mass, which was the ordinary form of the Mass from 1570-1969, is said in Latin, often accompanied by Gregorian Chant and incense, and emphasizes the sacrificial aspect of the Mass.

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; popefrancis; romancatholic; tlm; traditionalist; tridentine
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I notice that many of those who like this Pope would never darken the door of a Catholic church.
1 posted on 08/12/2014 3:09:02 PM PDT by TradicalRC
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To: TradicalRC
When Cardinal Bergoglio was elected pope in 2013, many traditional Catholics were wary. Recently, their pessimism is being justified as "The Francis Effect" makes itself felt across the world and in America, most notably in the Archdiocese of New York. So-called "traditional" Catholics prefer to attend the Mass as it was celebrated before and during the Second Vatican Council (1962-5), before the liturgy was radically reformed in 1969.

"I notice that many of those who like this Pope would never darken the door of a Catholic church."

PFL

2 posted on 08/12/2014 3:15:22 PM PDT by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: TradicalRC
The Mass has changed over the last 2000 years, not just this recent past. Nothing wrong with changing the "bells and whistles."

The ESSENCE of the Mass is the changing of the bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus. That has not changed.

The essence of humanity is change. It always has been. Generations are not static. Not much IS static in this life.

God's love for us in unchanging and we Catholics are MOST privileged to have His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity to consume at Mass. Everything else is bells and whistles.

3 posted on 08/12/2014 3:25:50 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: TradicalRC
"The Francis Effect," where dissenters are pandered to and enemies of the Church have their bellies scratched, while those who sacrifice for the Church, battle on the front lines, and just wish to pray at a good liturgy steeped in the traditional beauty of the Church are attacked, insulted, and if they dare so much emit a squeak of annoyance, find themselves cast out of the Church

The worst Pope since the days of the Borgias.

4 posted on 08/12/2014 3:30:57 PM PDT by denydenydeny ("World History is not full of good governments, or of good voters either "--P.J. O'Rourke)
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To: TradicalRC
This article paints an even sadder picture of the situation in NY than I first believed in the immediate aftermath of Fr. Wylie's removal. I didn't like Dolan from the start and I recall, like Francis, he was hailed as a breath of fresh air by those who'd never step foot in a Catholic Church . . . and by that I refer to lapsed Catholics and the flaky no-judgment types of every religious stripe . . . and no stripe as well.

What drives these people? What motivates a Timmy Dolan? I suspect something like Flannery O'Connor's "Church of Christ without Christ" from Wise Blood. The Cross is indeed a scandal . . . many will not have it.

5 posted on 08/12/2014 3:37:14 PM PDT by Oratam
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To: cloudmountain

Well said.


6 posted on 08/12/2014 3:37:48 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: cloudmountain

You have an extremely utilitarian and shallow view of what liturgy is. The Mass is not some industrial laboratory for manufacturing consecrated Hosts on demand—a workshop where beauty, decorum, prayerful contemplation are mere frills—”bells and whistles.”

You seem to think that any hideous, raucous hootenanny is just fine, as long as the consecrated Hosts get manufactured and passed out.


7 posted on 08/12/2014 3:44:17 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan
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To: Oratam

What motivates people like Dolan, Wuerl, and O’Malley is that the Church has these positions of power and prestige, and a complex system of backslapping and backstabbing has developed by which men can claw their way into these positions. These are the men who clawed and oozed their way to the top. Dolan’s pathetically transparent attempts to ape Francis’s leftism make is perfectly clear what kind of man he is. He is willing to stomp on anyone (like Fr. Wylie) to earn brownie points with Francis.


8 posted on 08/12/2014 3:50:14 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan
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To: Arthur McGowan
You have an extremely utilitarian and shallow view of what liturgy is. The Mass is not some industrial laboratory for manufacturing consecrated Hosts on demand—a workshop where beauty, decorum, prayerful contemplation are mere frills—”bells and whistles.” You seem to think that any hideous, raucous hootenanny is just fine, as long as the consecrated Hosts get manufactured and passed out.

That's not what I meant and you KNOW it. You are simply taking the WORSE take on what I wrote. Why, I don't know.

Take a look at the history of the Mass and see how it has changed over the last 2000 years. There are high and low Masses, weddings, funerals, singing, organs, pianos, chants...but THEY don't make a Mass a Mass.

The ESSENCE of the Mass, if you can READ what I write, is the CONSECRATION. That's what Jesus did at His Last Supper. It WAS/IS a meal, first, last and always.

If you REALLY want to see the ESSENCE of a Mass, just see a Mass being celebrated during combat. No bells and whistles there at all.

Now go away and leave me alone, please.

9 posted on 08/12/2014 3:55:07 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: cloudmountain

Everything else is bells and whistles.

Human nature is not able to understand the sacred mystery without the appropriate asethetics. Lex orendi lex credendi.


10 posted on 08/12/2014 4:09:29 PM PDT by stonehouse01
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: denydenydeny

“The worst Pope since the days of the Borgias”

Please explain to me what Catholic doctrine he has changed?


12 posted on 08/12/2014 4:10:33 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: Arthur McGowan

“You have”

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


13 posted on 08/12/2014 4:18:52 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Arthur McGowan

What motivates people like Dolan, etc. is equally transferred to pastors such as Brian Tracy, Joel Osteen, etc. They are in it for the money or power.

Original sin spares no one.

The great saints know this and St. John Chrysostom said that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of erring priests with bishops as their signposts.

Do not make the error that original sin causes doctrine (true teaching) to be wrong.


14 posted on 08/12/2014 4:31:11 PM PDT by stonehouse01
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To: Arthur McGowan

Dolan is working on being the next “pope”.


15 posted on 08/12/2014 4:44:07 PM PDT by piusv
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To: cloudmountain
The ESSENCE of the Mass is the changing of the bread and wine into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus.

The "essence" has changed; otherwise priest wouldn't be sitting on their rumps while lay people man-handle the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ like crackers and distribute them from plastic draft beer cups to people in the paw and on the hoof. All respect for the Body of Christ is lost in most New Masses.

Pope's World Yute Day in Rio

16 posted on 08/12/2014 4:53:28 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: NKP_Vet

He’s trying change one of the Ten Commandments. The Sixth Commandment; ask his favorite theologian, Kardinal Kasper.


17 posted on 08/12/2014 4:56:23 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: cloudmountain
Everything else is bells and whistles.

You've been posting essentially cookie cutter copies of that deranged and non-Catholic POV for some time now.

The essence of humanity is change. It always has been. Generations are not static. Not much IS static in this life.

You haven't figured out that progressivist comments, whether in the religious or political forums, don't fit here.

18 posted on 08/12/2014 4:59:12 PM PDT by steve86 ( Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
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To: cloudmountain
Generations are not static. Not much IS static in this life.

Well the Catholic Mass has been a lot more static from 1570 to 1969 than the Novus Ordo mutation from 1969 to present.

Did you know the original Novus Ordo Masses were still said in Latin, Holy Communion was distributed at an altar rail to kneeling people on their tongues, altar girls were forbidden, "extraordinary" eucharistic monsters were non-existent.

But like a virus, the novus has mutated into what it is today.

19 posted on 08/12/2014 5:25:27 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: cloudmountain

“Everything else is bells and whistles.”

I’m afraid that I must disagree most strongly.

How can I begin to describe the contribution “bells and whistles” have made to the salvation of souls? To the conversion of entire peoples, for that matter?

Music, art, and poetry are powerful. God often uses them to move hard hearts and exalt the hearts of the faithful. (When I say “poetry,” I mean prayers such as the Anima Christi and the Salve Regina, in the original Latin.) Sacred music, sacred art, and incense can help a person prepare for prayer.

Catholicism that scorns “bells and whistles” is halfway down the aisle to Protestantism.


20 posted on 08/12/2014 5:27:32 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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