Posted on 08/10/2014 10:55:09 AM PDT by wmfights
“They are seeing Protestant churches around them falling to liberalism and acting in complete defiance of Scripture.”
Let me ‘correct’ this comment...’They are seeing Catholics, including the Pope, falling into liperalism and acting in complete defiance of Scripture.’
Thanks for the article but it did not address my points. I did not claim Ireneaus was a dispensationalist. But he was a literal futurist with regards to prophecy.
I did not state Augustine was a dispensationalist but he recognized differing economies within scriptures. Which are dispensations.
I was pointing out with regards to Prophetic Scriptures one is either a literal futurist, prescribes to allegorizing or believes both under specific conditions.
Dispensationalism is a theoretical approach to the theological approach of literal futurism of Scriptures.
Please review the last half of Against Heresies and let me know where you see Ireneaus falls within a theological approach to eschatology.
I’ll help to eliminate the obvious. Ireneaus was not an allegorist.
I see an ignorance of Catholic teaching in those comments, which is somewhat expected when one is not Catholic and imagines himself to be a Jew when he is not a Jew.
lol, I have answered the question. there is only ONE GOD, in the OT , he is called the “first and the last” and in the NT he is called “the first and the last”.
the OT is full of types and shadows, example Abraham was a type of God the Father and Isaac as a type of Jesus. national Israel was a type of the real Israel, spiritual Israel which Jesus called His Church. sorry if you don’t like the answer, but that is historical, orthodox Christianity and not some 19th century Darby invention.
what world do I live in? I live in a Hebrews 8 and 9 world.
you stated there are mountains of verses indicating a future covenant to be fulfilled between God and Israel, I am only asking for one. I would hate to see someone not be able to give one verse out of a mountain to choose from by using as an excuse I haven’t answered their question. we will see.
Then why is the pope in Rome and not Jerusalem?
Where is Jesus Christ seated now? When He comes again where is He going?
Your Colossians 1 reference has little bearing on the subject. Of course those who abide in Christ are Kingdom citizens. But the Body of Christ is never singled out as the only element of the Kingdom of God.
1 Peter was written to Jews of the Diaspora (Dispersion) in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. They are part of the nation of Israel even when exiled from the land of Israel.
But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
lol, just as I thought.
Jesus rules from the true Jerusalem, which is above and free and she is our mother.
the Body of Christ are the only citizens of the Kingdom, there is only one way to the Father, one narrow gate and that is our King, Jesus Christ. this Kingdom is EVERLASTING, it will not end after 1,000 years.
you can read 1 Peter front to back and back to front, no where does it say it is written to Jews. NO WHERE.
hate to break it to you, but Peter did preach to Gentiles as well as Jews.
curious why you would point to St Irenaeus, when you don’t share his faith and wouldn’t worship with him if he were alive today. for example, he believed baptismal regeneration, do you?
No, rather a misunderstanding of what Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, wrote. A Jew must be both physically and spiritually circumcised to be of God. Physical circumcision alone would not profit when a Jew broke the law. Likewise a Gentile who is physically uncircumcised and spiritually circumcised is justified by God, as a Gentile. He does not need to become a Jew to be justified, in fact Paul taught that he must not be circumcised because he is a Gentile. Timothy had a Jewish mother so Paul had him physically circumcised even though he was already spiritually cirmcumsiced. If you are in Christ, you should remain in the station in which you are called. If you are a Gentile, remain a Gentile and don't foolishly try to become a Jew. If you are a man, don't confuse your gender and foolishly try to become a woman.
a “jew” as you call them must be BAPTIZED to be of God. in Christ, there is salvation, outside of Christ there is NO salvation. baptism is how one is put into Christ.
really man, get a refund on your Catholic “education”
It is in 1 Peter 1:1; I assumed that was obvious but apparently not. You can compare Diaspora in 1 Peter 1:1 with John 7:35 and James 1:1. It really is beyond doubt.
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon Strong's Number: 1290 Original Word Word Origin diasporav from (1289) Transliterated Word TDNT Entry Diaspora 2:98,156 Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech dee-as-por-ah' Noun Feminine Definition a scattering, dispersion of Israelites dispersed among foreign nations of the Christians scattered abroad among the Gentiles King James Word Usage - Total: 3 dispersed 1, scatter abroad 1, scattered 1 KJV Verse Count John 1 James 1 1 Peter 1 Total 3
LOL. No you haven't! The argument is not about the deity of Jesus Christ. How many times must I remind you of that? Here is what you said way back near the start of this thread:
I gave you an example of where your own religion teaches Mary is at the same time the mother of Christ, the daughter of the Father and the spouse of the Holy Spirit and she was the legal wife of Joseph. Is she a bigamist? Can someone be different things to the same entity?
You cannot escape the passages in the Bible that say Israel is the wife of Jehovah, that she was unfaithful and God wrote her a bill of divorce, that she will return in repentance one day and God will be reunited to her, issuing a new everlasting covenant that He WILL fulfill in the manner He promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Then there are the passages that speak of the Bride of Christ, who will be presented as a pure virgin, clothed in white linen washed in the blood of the Lamb. You want to allegorize the OT as just "types and shadows" but omit the literal parts that also apply. Bad theology.
For someone as yourself who believes everything has already been fulfilled and there IS no future for the nation of Israel, you run into the brick wall of all the things that God says are yet to come - things that certainly have NOT yet happened. Some of them are:
And it will come about in that day that I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born. (Zechariah 12:9-10)
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. And you will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! And it will come about in that day that there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. For it will be a unique day which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. And it will come about in that day that living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter. And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one. (Zechariah 14:4-9)
This is what Isaiah son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem: In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and all nations will stream to it. Many peoples will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. 5Come, descendants of Jacob, let us walk in the light of the Lord. (Isaih 2:1-5)
There's more but I think you have been given as much time on this as I'm willing to give someone who cares more about promoting his church than proclaiming the truth and learning about God's word and how much He keeps His promises.
Interesting phrase
must be BAPTIZED to be of God.
Looks like I was spot on about Church of Christ affiliation; I really like crossword puzzles and such.
Correct only one way through Jesus Christ to be Kingdom citizens. And the remnant of the promise can just as easily be grafted back in. Paul clearly points this out.
I was pointing out his literalist approach to prophecy fulfillment. Smart man. He saw all the messianic prophecies fulfilled literally and his writings indicate he believed there were yet to be fulfilled prophecies which would be fulfilled literally. I agree with him.
On baptismal regeneration, no the water has no merits. It is the Blood of Christ which washes away our sins. In the NT those who believed this were baptized. Regeneration of the old man to a new creature is of the Holy Spirit. Not water. The NT is clear. They heard the Gospel, they believed, repented and got wet. Why and when the symbols and shadows replaced the reality is a matter of interesting discussion.
So I will ask a similar question in return...Is baptismal regeneration the Gospel message of the NT?
On Ireneaus and if we would worship the same? Well if he worships and prays as the apostles and disciples of the NT, then we would keep company. My prayers and worship go to the Father in Heaven in The Name of His Son Jesus Christ. All worship, all prayers all devotion through Jesus Christ to The Father. Just as Jesus taught.
How so you?
BTW....don’t think I did not notice you are shifting the topic of the discussion. I think Ireneaus had a clear understanding that there were yet to be LITERAL fulfillment of prophecies. Then again he was not infallible. He did also believe Christ was 50 years old when crucified based on one verse in the gospels. And Christ’s ministry lasted ten years. So like you and me he was not perfect but seems to have a good grasp on matters where there are multiple scriptural evidence.
Did you mean James?
St James 1:1 DRC1752
James the servant of God, and of our Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
...”I didn’t go any further”.....
thus you remain in your fog.
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