Posted on 08/10/2014 10:55:09 AM PDT by wmfights
The word Israel is always descriptive of the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
as soon as I read that, I didn’t go any further. please read Romans 9:6-7 to see how wrong that statement is.
it might be a good idea to realize every Christian before the 19th century wasn’t an idiot.
those people don’t have to repent and be baptized?
hmm, I wonder why Peter told them they had to. I guess he was just pulling their leg?
1 Peter was written to the Christian community.
I suggest reading Galatians 3:26-29
for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith. for as many of you who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither slave nor free, THERE IS NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE; for you are all ONE in Christ Jesus. and if you are Christ’s, then you are Abrahams offspring, heirs according to the promise.
correcting what Paul wrote in Romans 2:29?
not Catholic? Church of Christ?
I will let my posts speak for themselves. Someone who thinks Catholics keep the 10 commandments instead of the law of Christ, might not be the best judge of who a Catholic is.
after all, Exodus 20:8-11 forbids working on the 7th day, our Saturday. when was the last time you heard any Catholic Bishop condemn Catholic major league ball players from playing on Saturday?
That's because Jesus stated His Kingdom is not of this world. He also corrected His disciples concerning an earthly establishment of His Kingdom:
Acts 1:6-8 NASB
So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
Earliest Church Fathers believed Israel was Realized in the Church
Posted by: Lysimachus
Earliest Church Fathers believed Israel was Realized in the Church - 07/20/11 12:54 PM
We are going to prove that the earliest Church Fathers were not Dispensationalists.
Dispensationalists like to accuse Historicism of originating from Augustine. But never will they accuse our views of Israel being realized in the Church as stemming from the earliest Fathers. Why? Because then they will shoot themselves in the foot as they love to appeal to these Fathers to support their Futurist interpretations!
While I am not a fan of appealing to the early Fathers to support any teachings, I will provide the following sources only to make a point. That being, that Dispensationalists are on baseless grounds to accuse Historicism of originating from Augustine and Origen when the teachings of Futurism originate in the Beliar Myth and pseudepigraphal writings. In fact, the Dispensational Premillennial notions are essentially the elements found in the “Pseudepigraphal Millennium”. These ideas were believed by mythical Jews that lived in the Alexandrian era. They wrote uninspired mythical books of junk.
But going back on topic, seeing that Dispensationalists love so much to allude to the earliest Church fathers as the “paragons of our faith”, and for “preserving our apostolic heritage”, and for “supporting the futurist views”, let’s see what they have to say about Israel:
I will quote D.S. Farris:
Quote:
Were The Early Fathers Dispensationalists?
Now we need to ask more questions: Have modern dispensationalists received their dispensational system from the early fathers? For the sake of clarity we will ask again; what is dispensationalism? Charles Ryrie says, “The essence of dispensationalism, then, is the distinction between Israel and the Church” (Dispensationalism Today, 47). Lewis S. Chafer says, “The distinction between the purpose for Israel and the purpose for
the Church is about as important as that which exists between the two testaments” (Systematic Theology, Vol. 4, 47). As we have seen, the dispensational doctrine of the distinction between Israel and the Church leads them to teach, “The church is not fulfilling in any sense the promises to Israel” (Ryrie, The Basis of the Premillennial Faith, 136). Chafer says, “That the Christian now inherits the distinctive Jewish promises is not taught in scripture” (Systematic Theology, Vol. 4, 316).
Did the early fathers believe any of these propositions? No! The following brief examples will suffice to prove the point. Concerning the temple, the early Church father, Barnabas, says in the Epistle Of Barnabas:
•Moreover, I will also tell you concerning the temple, how the wretched [Jews], wandering in error, trusted not in God Himself, but in the temple, as being the house of God. For almost after the manner of the Gentiles they worshipped Him in the temple. But learn how the speaks when abolishing it: “Who hath meted out heaven with a span, and the earth with his palm? Have not I?” “Thus saith the Lord, Heaven is My Throne, and the earth My footstool: what kind of house will ye build to Me, or what is the place of My rest?” Ye perceive that their hope is vain (The Epistle Of Barnabas chap. XVI, “The Spiritual Temple Of God” in ANF, Vol. 1, 147).
Barnabas goes on to say in lengthy words that the temple of God is the Holy Spirit dwelling in the Christian. Barnabas teaches: “The New Covenant, Founded on The Sufferings of Christ, tends to our [the Church] salvation, but to the Jews’ destruction” (The Epistle Of Barnabas chap. V, “The Spiritual Temple Of God” in ANF, Vol. 1, 139). In ANF Vol. 1—the source we are citing these Church fathers—we see it as bright as the sunshine that they were not dispensationalists. In chapter VI Barnabas teaches that the New Covenant for the Church was foreseen by the prophets. Barnabas teaches in chap. XIII “Christians, and not Jews, [are] the heirs of the Covenant” (The Epistle Of Barnabas chap. XIII, “The Spiritual Temple Of God” in ANF, Vol. 1, 145). In chap. XIV he teaches that the Church received “the Testament which Moses received and broke.” Barnabas says, “Learn now how we have received it (the covenant). Moses, as a servant, received it; but the Lord himself, having suffered in our behalf, hath given it to us, that we should be the people of inheritance” (The Epistle Of Barnabas chap. XIV, “The Spiritual Temple Of God” in ANF, Vol. 1, 146).
Justin Martyr says in his Dialogue With Trypho—a Jew:
•For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucifed Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed (Dialogue With Trypho. chap. XI in ANF vol. 1, 200. Emphasis mine).
Justin went as far as to say in chap. XXV that “the Jews boast in vain that they are sons of Abraham” (Dialogue With Trypho. chap. XI in ANF vol. 1, 206. Emphasis mine). Justin says concerning Jacob and his seed:
•But Israel was His name from the beginning, to which He altered the name of the blessed Jacob when He blessed him with His own name, proclaiming thereby that all who through Him have fled for refuge to the Father, constitute the blessed Israel. But you, having understood none of this, and not being prepared to understand, since you are the children of Jacob after the fleshly seed, expect that you shall be assuredly saved. But that you deceive yourselves in such matters, I proved by many words (Dialogue With Trypho. chap. CXXV in ANF vol. 1, 262).
The Ante-Nicene Father, Irenaeus says, “and He (Christ) gathered into one faith of Abraham those who, from either covenant, are eligible for God’s building” (Irenaeus Against Heresies book IV chap. XXV in ANF, vol. 1, 496). Irenaeus also says:
•When ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of heaven, but you yourselves cast out.” This, then, is a clear point, that those who disallow his salvation, and frame the idea of another God besides Him who made the promise to Abraham, are outside the kingdom of God, and are disinherited from [the gift of] incorruption, setting at naught and blaspheming God, who introduces, through Jesus Christ, Abraham to the kingdom of heaven, and his seed, that is, the Church, upon which also is conferred the adoption and the inheritance promised to Abraham (Irenaeus Against Heresies book VIII chap. XXV in ANF, vol. 1, 470, 471 Emphasis mine)
In chap. XXVI Irenaeus teaches: “the treasure hid in scriptures is Christ; the true exposition of the scriptures is to be found in the church alone” (ANF, vol. 1, 496). Irenaeus says that the Church was foreseen by the Prophets: “Then I have pointed out the truth, and shown the preaching of the Church, which the prophets proclaimed” (ANF, vol.
1, 526).
Every one of these samples is a complete repudiation to any notion that these Church fathers were dispensationalists by the definitions of C.C. Ryrie and L. S. Chafer. There are other Church fathers who essentially say the same things as the ones we have cited. It was universally believed by the Church fathers that the Church is the Israel of God. In the following chapter, we are going to reveal the true origins of dispensationalism. Throughout this course, we have used this term loosely to represent the whole Pre-Tribulation Dispensational Futurist system, for it is common practice in Christendom to speak of the whole system by that term. However, when we are attempting to isolate the sources of each part of this system, we must be more meticulous at distinguishing these terms.
Source: Futurism: The Counterfeit Prophecy (Link: http://www.hearingthetruth.org/chapter8.pdf), pages 46-49.
I highly recommend reading that full paper, from beginning to end. It will BLOW your mind!
In addition to the above, I recommend D.S. Farris’ chapter on The Israel of God (Link: http://www.hearingthetruth.org/chapter3.pdf).
Even if you already agree on this truth, I encourage everyone to read it in order to sharpen their skills and acquiring the necessary defense tools to dismantle the overmastering delusions that are being propounded by men like “Truth Files”.
For those of you who wish to read the entire book from beginning to end, go to this page here:
Prophetic Toolchest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion (Link: http://hearingthetruth.org/Table_of_Contents.htm)
All online for free.
posted from the clubadventist.com site, which is not Catholic but 7th day Adventist. I trust the quotes are accurate since I have read them on other sites.
the main thrust of dispensationalism is the belief that Israel and the Church are separate and distinct bodies and God has future promises to keep with Israel.
Historical Christianity, the faith received from Paul and the other Apostles and passed on by the Church Fathers, believes the Church is Israel. National Israel was a type of the spiritual Israel in which all believers, Jew or Gentile are added when they are baptized into Christ. Certainly St Augustine believed and taught that the Church is Israel and he is anathema to any good dispensationalist. Darby is to dipensationalism what Joseph Smith is to Mormonism. both are foreign to historical, orthodox Christianity.
I just knew someone was going to claim he or she had not gender. I just knew it ...
That’s rich. The Trinitarian problem occurs bestowing blessed Mary mother of Christ the title mother of God. Thus making her the mother of Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
So you guys have the Trinitarian issue.
read Colossians 1:13-14, the kingdom has been established. anyone who has read Irenaeus book 3, Chapter 12:
To the Jews, indeed, [they proclaimed] that the Jesus who was crucified by them was the Son of God, the Judge of quick and dead, and that He has received from His Father an eternal kingdom in Israel, as I have pointed out; but to the Greeks they preached one God, who made all things, and Jesus Christ His Son.
Irenaeus believed Jesus received an eternal Kingdom from his Father in Israel. doesn’t sound like dispensationalism to me.
argue with Paul.......
And yet you still don't!
You continue to rehash points that NOBODY here is denying. YES, Jesus established a NEW covenant. YES, Jesus is Almighty God incarnate. YES, the church age is all about the Bride of Christ who will be presented as a spotless virgin to the Son of God. What you continue to evade - and I don't think you just are missing it - is that there IS still to be a covenant between God and the nation of Israel in the end times and it is yet to come. A few things are still to happen before that becomes reality. There is a mountain of Scripture to attest to that.
You failed to address how Israel can be the Wife of Jehovah and the church the Bride of Christ. You seemed to be flummoxed by the idea and accused those who believe this of calling God a "polygamist" and denying that Jesus IS God. So why not answer that one instead of continuing to regurgitate things nobody is arguing against?
I've always known that most Catholics have no idea why they believe what they claim they do. That kind of ignorance CAN be remedied.
Correcting what someone else wrote; Paul did not write "SPIRITUAL AND NOT LITERAL"; he wrote: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Concerning those who misinterpreted the Apostle Paul, Peter wrote: Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
please give me chapter and verse that there still is to be a covenant between national Israel and God.
Jeremiah 31 has been fulfilled, so please don’t try that one again.
Obviously not Catholic, obviously replacement theology
lol, in the spirit and not in the letter is the same as spiritual not literal.
don’t forget, tomorrow is the 7th day Sabbath. I don’t want you to break the commandment by doing any work.
mind telling everyone who taught you the Catholic Faith, I would ask for my money back.
Rather just leave the cult.
do you keep holy the 7th day Sabbath by not doing any work on it?
no Catholic can answer yes.
anyone answering “no”, isn’t keeping the 10 commandments.
you are up.
No. Not until you address the FIRST question I challenged you on. Reminder: Israel as the wife of Jehovah and the church as the Bride of Christ. Explain how that Biblical fact isn't a fact according to you.
(P.S. You can't be serious that you think Jeremiah 31 has been fulfilled! What world do you live in?)
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