Is There Growing Confusion over Church Teaching?

Crisis Magazine ^ | July 16, 2014 | Dr. William Oddie

[boatbums]

Just so you know, I only pinged you out of courtesy, not to criticize. We ALL make mistakes and no one likes a self-appointed grammar nazi. ;o)

[JPX2011]

And God used Judas in His plan for Christ to die for our salvation. And God used Balham’s donkey. And God used Herod and Pharaoh.

All singular events. Only the Catholic Church was promised to lead the Body of Christ to all Truth until the end of the world. As in, ongoing.

[JPX2011]

Those don’t change a thing. Muslims may claim they serve the God of Abraham but it’s clear they don’t. They serve a different god of their own making. The Catholic Church not being able to see that is an indication of their lack of knowledge and understanding of the one true God of scripture.

If Muslims do not profess to worship the One True God, then what being do they worship and what is its contingency?

Is God still God no matter what man says about him? Is the modalist, who describes the Trinity as being a series of offices instead of persons believing in the same God, even though their understanding of Trinity is flawed?

[CynicalBear]

>>Only the Catholic Church was promised to lead the Body of Christ to all Truth until the end of the world.<<

Please show the scripture that says that it’s that institution that was to lead.

[FourtySeven]

Ok thanks. I didn’t know that. Thanks for your honesty.

[JPX2011]

Everything you all take credit for God could have accomplished on His own.

Yes He could've. In fact he could have saved us all without the need for Christ, the 2nd person of the Trinity coming to Earth as man. But He didn't. He chose to assume humanity to unite us with His Divinity

That act, echoes through eternity. It's why Lucifer and his followers proclaimed non serviam . Raise man above us pure spiriitual beings? Never.

Humanity has a role to play in salvation history. I know this isn't shared with the TULIP crew but its true nonetheless. The Catholic Church is God's way of doing that. So when we "take credit" as you put it, all we're doing is glorifying God's Divine plan which includes our separated brothers and sisters.

[JPX2011]

Please show the scripture that says that it’s that institution that was to lead.

Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20:19-23)

Christ's power to forgive sins. Given to the Apostles. The power of Christ resides with those who go out and forgive the sins of others. Only the Catholic Church was given this power and exercises it to this day. No other denomination can lay claim to this power.

[metmom]

The same word is used in John 1:12 as Ephesians 1:13

Those who believe, receiving Jesus, are those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption through that same believing that gave them the right, or authority, to become the children of God.

Believe - Greek

http://biblehub.com/text/john/1-12.htm

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Strong's Concordance

believe - pisteuó: to believe, entrust

Original Word: πιστεύω Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: pisteuó Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o) Short Definition: I believe, have faith in Definition: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

HELPS Word-studies

4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded")

– believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing).

Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

http://biblehub.com/ephesians/1-13.htm

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

In Greek: http://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/1-13.htm http://biblehub.com/greek/4100.htm

[metmom]

All singular events. Only the Catholic Church was promised to lead the Body of Christ to all Truth until the end of the world. As in, ongoing.

Absolutely, dead wrong.

Jesus never promised that the church would lead into all truth, but that the Holy Spirit would lead into all truth.

John 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

[metmom]

Yes He could've. In fact he could have saved us all without the need for Christ, the 2nd person of the Trinity coming to Earth as man.

No, He couldn't have. If there were some other way to save mankind, God would have done it.

Sin cannot be in the presence of a holy God. Death is the penalty for sin. Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin.

[CynicalBear]

>>Christ's power to forgive sins. Given to the Apostles. The power of Christ resides with those who go out and forgive the sins of others. Only the Catholic Church was given this power and exercises it to this day. No other denomination can lay claim to this power.<<

Scripture shows that to be untrue.

Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.

Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

[CynicalBear]

>>Jesus never promised that the church would lead into all truth, but that the Holy Spirit would lead into all truth.<<

Interesting how the Catholic Church has twisted the meaning of so much of scripture. The “church” assembly of believers was to uphold the truth. No where does scripture teach that they would “lead into” or “make” truth.

[daniel1212]

The larger issue is that Caths cannot lose what they never had, as they are told they are children of God and treated as such due to being sprinkled with water (in their usually morally cognizant condition), and thus are formally justified due to their own holiness.

And thus usually end up in "Purgatory" in order to be made good enough to enter Heaven.

[Gamecock]

It originated from modern evangelicalism/easy believism.

I believe I alraedy gave you my churches, as well as other Reformed church stand on OSAS.

[Elsie]

Neither could Claire Booth ****...

[Elsie]

No one has ever said a Saint now in Heaven didn’t make a mistake while on Earth.

Yet, saints are CLAIMED to actually BE in Heaven with no proof.

Strange world; ain't it!

[Elsie]

I mean we know that declarations of Sainthood are considered infallible. So are you saying he was erroneously “made” a Saint (and thus Francis is not a valid Pope)?

Bah!

He'll NEVER make it to the list of BAD popes!

[Elsie]

Nutcase preachers abound, they fool a few (sadly you sound like you’ve been fooled, since you insist you are not telling jokes) and then eventually wander away.

Kinda like FR posters...

[Elsie]

The Church endures, through century after century, attack after attack.

I'd expect nothing less...

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, 
and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 


—Matthew 13:24-30, Holy Bible: King James Version

[Elsie]

The Church endures, through century after century, attack after attack.

I'd expect nothing less...

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, 
and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 


—Matthew 13:24-30, Holy Bible: King James Version