Christianity and Islam: A Common Heritage?

Crisis Magazine ^ | 7/1/14 | William Kilpatrick

[BlatherNaut]

Recently two prominent American bishops joined two leading Shiite Muslim scholars in Iran in issuing a statement on weapons of mass destruction. According to the statement, “Christianity and Islam cherish a common heritage that emphasizes, above all, love and respect for the life dignity, and welfare of all members of the human community.” It went on to say that “Catholicism and Shia Islam hold a common commitment to peaceful coexistence and mutual respect,” and concluded with a commitment to “our mutual intention to engage in sustained dialogue based on our shared values.”

[Daveinyork]

Sheep is right.

[Daveinyork]

“I think your comment is that of a genuine devil’s advocate. And like most devil’s advocates, you are ignorant to the side you are working for.”

I don’t advocate for the devil, I advocate for my ancestors and more recent relatives who have been persecuted, evicted, tortured, and killed because of their faith, and they may be Jews, they may be Amish, and they may be Mennonites, they may even be Catholics or Protestants. It wasn’t Christians in Europe or the Middle East that granted them refuge. It was Americans of all faiths.

[stars & stripes forever]

“Sheep is right.”

His sheep. Our Shepherd.

I am the Good Shepherd. The good shepherd lays down
His life for His sheep. John 10:11

[BlatherNaut]

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

We are in full agreement that VII unleashed a wave of apostasy, but what specifically is untrue in the above statement from LG? It is vague enough to be subject to various interpretations, allowing the "who am I to judge" and ecumaniac crowds to make false or exaggerated claims of parity between the religions (at times to a lunatic degree) but what part of the statement is objectively false?

[sitetest]

Dear Biggirl,

The religion of Islam, as opposed to Arab culture, generally, traces back to the camel trader Mohammed and his supposed revelation in the latter part of the 6th century AD and the first part of the 7th century AD.

An analysis of Islamic doctrine shows itself to be an offshoot of the Arian heresy.

Muslims believe that Jesus was the son of the Virgin Mary, that He was the Word of God, that He was Incarnate of the Holy Spirit of God, that He was the Messiah, and that He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

But like the Arians, Muslims don't believe that Jesus is God the Son, Second Person of the Trinity, or that Jesus is co-eternal with the Father.

A subtle difference between Islam and Arianism is that the Arian heresy does accord Jesus status as the created Son of God, the Lord, but not of the same substance as God the Father, and not co-eternal with Him. The Muslims reject that God has any sons, created or not. They believe that God is totally other from man, that man is not made in God's image, and therefore, God is entirely transcendent in relationship with man, and no man may be called God, God's Son, or Lord.

However, Islamic belief, at least from a Catholic perspective, is a little confused, in that Muslims do believe that Jesus was born of a virgin by the power of the Spirit of God, which seems to me to be crypto-Arian.

Historically, the Arian heretics, after losing their battles for control of the Catholic Church, were exiled to the deserts of Arabia. Mohammed would have come across their communities as he traveled across these deserts. It isn't difficult to trace theologically their Arianism to the somewhat-modified Arianism of Mohammed.

sitetest

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Were you thinking of something else?

Oh, there's plenty of religious persecution by Christians to be found without mentioning the crusades. Like, say, the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre...

...or the suppression of the German Anabaptists...

Although I suppose the latter can be considered less "butchering" and more "roasting."

[ealgeone]

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

We are in full agreement that VII unleashed a wave of apostasy, but what specifically is untrue in the above statement from LG? It is vague enough to be subject to various interpretations, allowing the "who am I to judge" and ecumaniac crowds to make false or exaggerated claims of parity between the religions (at times to a lunatic degree) but what part of the statement is objectively false?

For the Christian we worship Jehovah.

For the Muslim they worship Allah.

While Allah may be translated into English as God, it in no way equates with God/Jehovah in the Bible. They are not the same.

One is real and alive, Jehovah. The other is a lie from the pit; Allah.

So for the pope to say catholics and muslims adore the one merciful God is somewhat confusing...or it's something else.

[elcid1970]

WTF?

[piusv]

Where in Traditional Catholicism do you find the Church stating that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God? If LG/Vatican II is just a re-presentation of prior Church doctrine, then that should be easy to find. I have yet to do so. All I can seem to find are quotes from popes and saints who have nothing positive to say about the religion (and in some cases that’s putting it mildly). This is (one of the reasons) why I say that LG/Vatican II was NOT just pastoral in nature at all.

Islam has always been considered a false religion. Not only a false religion but diabolical (ie. it does not come from God). Given the Catholic Church teaches that all public divine revelation finished with the death of the last apostle, then it couldn’t have been the same “god” who revealed himself to Mohammed. Therefore Muslims do not worship the same God as we do. Allah is not God.

[CynicalBear]

Man I’m glad you corrected that! LOL You had me scratching my head there for a minute. I didn’t know whether to respond or not. Glad I read on down.

[ebb tide]

I have never believed that the muslims “along with us [Catholics] adore the one and merciful God”.

If Catholics and muslims worship the same God, why did the Blessed Mother only intercede on the Catholic’s behalf at the Battle of Lepanto?

[BlatherNaut]

Where in Traditional Catholicism do you find the Church stating that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God?

There is only one Creator. "Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God." (summa, art. 3). Thus, those who worship the Creator worship the same God.

Islam has always been considered a false religion.

Which LG makes implicitly rather than explicitly clear with the descriptor of "those who have not yet received the Gospel" (IOW, those who practice a false religion).

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator.

Note it does not say that the plan of salvation also includes Islam. It says that it includes those who acknowledge the Creator. The Church has traditionally taught that such individuals may be saved. "An heathen, believing, even though in a confused way, in a God whose will should be done and desiring to do that will whatever it may be, probably has Baptism of desire. It may reasonably be assumed that vast numbers of persons unbaptized by water have thus been rendered capable of enjoying the Beatific Vision." http://www.catholicessentials.net/baptismofdesire.htm

In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.

The case might be made that those who worship the Creator and "adore the one and merciful God" by decapitating others with whom they disagree are in a far more spiritually dangerous position than those whose invincible ignorance leads them to worship idols. While the statement from LG is weak, incomplete and potentially misleading, there is no actual justification to be found in it for encouraging people to persist in false religions.

[BlatherNaut]

If Catholics and muslims worship the same God, why did the Blessed Mother only intercede on the Catholic’s behalf at the Battle of Lepanto?

Because they are heretics. Muslims worship the true God in an imperfect and twisted way.

[ebb tide]

I respectfully disagree.

[22] Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son. [23] Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also. John Chapter 2

According to St. John, Muhammad was an anitChrist.

[ebb tide]

anti-Christ

[ebb tide]

Saint Peter Mavimenus (died A.D. 743): "Whoever does not embrace the Catholic Christian religion will be damned, as was your false prophet Mohammed." (Roman Martyrology, February 21st) [Upon this profession of the faith, the infidel murdered him.]

Saint George of San Saba (died A.D. 852): "Mohammed was a disciple of the devil, and his followers are in a state of perdition." (In "Victories of the Martyrs" by Saint Alphonsus)

Blessed Nicholas Talvilich (died 1391): "You Mohammedans are in a state of everlasting damnation. Your Koran is not God's law nor is it revealed by Him. Far from being a good thing, your law is utterly evil. It is founded neither in the Old Testament nor in the New. In it are lies, foolish things, buffooneries, contradictions, and much that leads not to virtue and goodness but to evil and to all manner of vice."

[ebb tide]

Because they are heretics. Muslims worship the true God in an imperfect and twisted way.

From your above definition, do you also consider the Jews to be heretics?

[BlatherNaut]

The Church makes a distinction between heretics of defection and heretics of descent. A heretic of descent who has never known the Catholic religion may be justified through baptism of desire.

---

Fr. John Hardon THE QUESTION AND ANSWER CATECHISM

IS BAPTISM OF WATER NECESSARY FOR SALVATION? It is commonly taught by the
Church that baptism of water is necessary for salvation for those who have
not reached the use of reason.

WHAT IS BAPTISM OF DESIRE? Baptism of desire is the implicit desire for baptism of water by a person who makes an act of perfect love of God,
based on faith and with a sincere sorrow for one’s sins. Such was the case
in the Acts of the Apostles, when Peter encountered pagans who, moved by
the grace of the Holy Spirit, proclaimed the greatness of God. “Peter
himself then said, ‘Could anyone refuse the water of baptism to these
people, now they have received the Holy Spirit....?’” (Acts 10:46-47).

IS BAPTISM OF DESIRE A SACRAMENT? Baptism of desire is not a sacrament;
it does not imprint the baptismal character or enable a person to receive
the other sacraments. Nevertheless, it does confer sanctifying grace.

https://www.ewtn.com/library/DOCTRINE/BAPTISM.TXT

[BlatherNaut]

THE GREAT HERESIES by Hilaire Belloc Chapter Four The Great and Enduring Heresy of Mohammed "...Mohammedanism was a : that is the essential point to grasp before going any further. It began as a heresy, not as a new religion. It was not a pagan contrast with the Church; it was not an alien enemy. It was a perversion of Christian doctrine. It vitality and endurance soon gave it the appearance of a new religion, but those who were contemporary with its rise saw it for what it was_not a denial, but an adaptation and a misuse, of the Christian thing. It differed from most (not from all) heresies in this, that it did not arise within the bounds of the Christian Church. The chief heresiarch, Mohammed himself, was not, like most heresiarchs, a man of Catholic birth and doctrine to begin with. He sprang from pagans. But that which he taught was in the main Catholic doctrine, oversimplified. It was the great Catholic world_on the frontiers of which he lived, whose influence was all around him and whose territories he had known by travel_which inspired his convictions. He came of, and mixed with, the degraded idolaters of the Arabian wilderness, the conquest of which had never seemed worth the Romans' while..."

http://www.ewtn.com/library/homelibr/heresy4.txt

[BykrBayb]

Yeah, that was an unfortunate typo, that resulted in the opposite of what I meant.