Did Paul invent or hijack Christianity?

Madison Ruppert ^ | 06/24/2014

[Elsie]

1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Is 'overcoming' like 'enduring to the end'?

[Elsie]

Ya gotta LEAD with the cereal; if you want to get a PROTESTant to convert to the church based in ROME!!

[Elsie]

[verga]

You said my gospel was "one and done" and now you want to hedge a little? Interesting....do you imagine I have no Scripture to back up what I said?

I fully support you quoting me, quite a bit of the things I write bear repeating. What I don't support is you MISquoting me. I go out of my way to cut and paste the things I respond to. That way there is no misunderstanding as to exactly what I am responding to. Please have the consideration to do the same.

you wroteYou said my gospel was "one and done" and now you want to hedge a little? Interesting....do you imagine I have no Scripture to back up what I said?

That is not what I wrote, not even close. My post 1,167 For the record my only contention was that Boatbums apparent "one and done" theology was off base.

Now you have responded that you do believe in "eternal security" which is also called "Once saved always saved". So that takes the term "apparent" off the table. I included it since I was pretty sure that is what you were getting at but did not want to be accused of "mind reading"

Second you are aware that the word "Theology", encompasses much more than the word "gospel".

Theology- from dictionary.com

the·ol·o·gy [thee-ol-uh-jee] noun, plural the·ol·o·gies.

1. the field of study and analysis that treats of God and of God's attributes and relations to the universe; study of divine things or religious truth; divinity.

2. a particular form, system, branch, or course of this study.

On the other hand Gospel literally means "Good News"

As far as your scriptural quotations go Good job, incomplete but good job.

(I will conveniently ignore that the father did require work from both of the sons, but mention it only in passing)

The youngest son took his inheritance and squandered it. He had his "salvation" and threw it away. Now may protestants say that this parable proves OSAS. I say it completely disproves it. No one forced the son to return. No one held a gun to his head, he di it of his own "free will".

He could have stayed with the farmer slopping the hogs, he could have returned to the city and took up a life of begging. He could have traveled to a different country and did a number of other things.

And here is the important issue, at any point in the parable he could have died, and att he point of death what would his state have been?

Here is a hint: He sure as heck would not have been "saved", he would have been lost.

[metmom]

So, yeah, I proclaim with grateful joy that we are saved by grace through faith and not by our works and that is what gives us eternal security.

Seems that that is beyond the comprehension of so many.

It goes to show who the people who aren't sure of their salvation are trusting.

If you're trusting God completely, there is no uncertainty.

[daniel1212]

Who's mocking the Torah and the Jews? The OT states that marital relations make men and women unclean. Leviticus 15:16-18...Observing that the modern day Judaizers don't follow the Law they claim we must is not mocking Jews or the Torah.

It simply indicates a desperate pretext to shoot at a evangelical, based on what i must have been thinking.

[editor-surveyor]

Believing on the one he sent means complete obedience in all of his commandments.

[editor-surveyor]

Why did you not start at the beginning of the chapter?

The first 11 verses conclusively prove the very words that you try to contest!

This is deception; you do Satan’s work well!
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[editor-surveyor]

Your idea of assurance is the fallacy.

Assurance can only come from the knowledge that one is following his master’s commandments.

[Springfield Reformer]

I am delighted you found it helpful. Keep in mind I am an amateur at this. It’s been years since I actually studied the language intensely (A couple of semesters of Hebrew too - never got as comfortable with it as the Greek). I’ve been getting by with undue reliance on my language tools. And that’s been fine for most of the garden variety controversies I’ve wrestled with, mostly individual word studies. But this whole episode puts me in mind to take a refresher, and then maybe go on to the next level. Onward and upward. :)

Peace,

SR

[editor-surveyor]

You rage at me for telling you the words of Yehova!

It is those words that convict! (and yes, that is the very purpose of Torah: to convict one of their sin so that they may confess and repent, unto righteousness.)

That is precisely what the Mikvah is (poorly translated as baptism).

[verga]

ZI have to congratulate both of us for reading and understanding every single word of what the other was talking about. Then both of us did a wonderful job of defending our words instead of the ones the other was talking about. You were talking about "mou" and I was talking about "to"

I also must apologize for forgetting that your Doctorate is in Law while one of my Masters is in Theology.

I know understand why you view the components Christ's body as possessions. I hope you can understand why from a philosophical point of view them more as His essence: From dictionary.com: essence Philosophy. the inward nature, true substance, or constitution of anything, as opposed to what is accidental, phenomenal, illusory, etc.

4. philosophy

a. Compare accident the unchanging and unchangeable nature of something which is necessary to its being the thing it is; its necessary properties

b. the properties in virtue of which something is called by its name

c. the nature of something as distinct from, and logically prior to, its existence

Right now I have to help my wife get the house ready. we are having friends over for dinner.

I do see where each of us is coming from though.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “Explain how that in any way says someone CAN have assurance of their salvation?” <<

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By being obedient to his words.

That is precisely what “belief” means.
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[verga]

(A couple of semesters of Hebrew too - never got as comfortable with it as the Greek).

Sadly the instructor at my seminary had a stroke the semester before I was going to take Hebrew with him and I missed out greatly on that. We do have a Jewish Synagogue here in town and I have been meaning to go knocking on their door.

But this whole episode puts me in mind to take a refresher, and then maybe go on to the next level. Onward and upward. :)

I might have to do that as well. I just have to convince my wife that Biblical languages are more important than cutting lawns and trimming hedges.

[metmom]

Paul was perfect in obeying the Law. He said so himself.

Was he saved at that point, when he was persecuting Christians?

No.

Philippians 3:2-11 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “Paul was perfect in obeying the Law. He said so himself.

Was he saved at that point, when he was persecuting Christians?” <<

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Can you really not see the complete contradiction in those two statements?

In your rage against the words of our savior, you seem to grasp at vapors.

Just read 1 John as many times as it takes for the word of God to sink in.

Paul’s epistles are too complex for you, and selecting sweet (misunderstood) words out of his long rants sends you down rabbit trails.

Paul is saying the very same things as John does, but there is too much window dressing around them. Paul was never “blameless” under the law of Yehova before his enlightenment on the Damascus road. It was through the strength gained in faith allowing him to truly follow the law in spirit, rather than ritual, that he found righteousness.
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[Springfield Reformer]

I just have to convince my wife that Biblical languages are more important than cutting lawns and trimming hedges.

LOL! Good luck with that! Sorry to hear about your Hebrew prof. My first Hebrew teacher was quite old. But he was so good, and so kind and gentle with those of us who struggled. Ah the good old days. That was a loooong time ago.

Anyway, enjoy your mowing. After all, per Genesis, we were made to tend gardens, right? :)

As for me, I was up way too late, so I'll probably take it easy the rest of the day, so I'll probably offer some sort of response your latest thoughts somewhat later. But as before, good to talk with you. God bless.

Peace,

SR

[roamer_1]

Is 'overcoming' like 'enduring to the end'?

Perhaps in the big picture that is true, I suppose, but I am a one-day-at-a-time kinda guy.

[Elsie]

Here is a hint: He sure as heck would not have been "saved", he would have been lost.

This from one who states that we should not judge another person's salvation?

[Elsie]

Believing on the one he sent means complete obedience in all of his commandments.

Then why didn't Jesus tell this to the fella who asked the question?