Look! Squirrel! (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!)
Posted on 06/24/2014 2:13:28 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
Your first point:Does it matter to the finding of metaphor that He is or is not speaking of a possession? I understand you are trying to establish that the form is not possessive, but in fact, as a matter of logic, His blood and Body are His possession.
Jesus is the single most unique being ever in the history of the universe. He is both fully Human and fully Divine at the same time. He is made up of His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. They are not His possessions, they are His essence, they are what make Him, Him.
Your second point:The shared attribute is the analogical teaching element, and the contrast in category, the "impossibility factor," is the trip wire for spotting the metaphor.
I personally don't see the "impossibility factor" as an issue. Jesus as a divine being is not subject to the same limitations that our bodies and natures subject us to. This is the being that raised Talitiha and Lazarus from the dead, so turning bread and wine into His literal body and blood would be nothing. Keep in mind that God the Father created the entire universe Ex nihilo from nothing.
Your third point:But I do want to understand your grammatical point. "mou" is extremely frequent in the NT corpus as a simple genitive, most often showing possession (although I think the genitive can be broader than that, going to the root idea of "the source of x", hence the "gen" in genitive).
I know that you are aware of the following, but I want others to see my reasoning. The genitive case does refer to possessions, but was not used. The dative case refers to refers to instrumentality, location, or reception and also was not used. That leaves the Accusative and the Nominative both as possibilities. The accusative case refers to the direct object of a verb generally an action verb ie. He runs, She talks, etc.. That leave the nominative which is the subject of the sentence. In this case "This is" "This" being the bread.
All of your examples are good ones, but you left out the one in which a divine being, God the Father, is discussing another divine being, Jesus.
Luke 6:35 And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my Son, my chosen: hear ye him.
καὶ φωνὴ ἐγένετο ἐκ τῆς νεφέλης λέγουσα· οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός· αὐτοῦ ἀκούετε.
Three verses down Luke6:38 And behold, a man from the multitude cried, saying, Teacher, I beseech thee to look upon my son; for he is mine only child:
καὶ ἰδοὺ ἀνὴρ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄχλου ἀνεβόησε λέγων· διδάσκαλε, δέομαί σου, ἐπίβλεψον ἐπὶ τὸν υἱόν μου, ὅτι μονογενής μοί ἐστι·
In the first example the nominative case is used in the second, the accusative case.
This is why I am convinced that they nominative case was used. The genitive tou which could refer to a possession was not and the accusative would have to have a direct object.
But that is not the end of it. I combine that with the Bread of the bread of life discourse at the end of John 6 Joh 6:53 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves.
Joh 6:54 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him.
This is the second time I have written this. The first time took over an hour and I accidently deleted it. The second took about an hour. This one may be some what disjointed and I apologize in advance for that.
I do to say that it was a pleasure to read your comments. I enjoy reading a well thought out argument even if I do disagree with it.
I just saw that after I asked.
Forgive me. I’ve been on vacation for the last week and a half and am just getting caught up.
Did you really forget what YOU wrote two short posts ago in post 1,179:God will not cast out His children, He will not LOSE a one, He will not take the Holy Spirit from those He has sealed. It is a promise based on HIS faithfulness, not ours. This IS the gospel of the grace of God and those who disagree with it - though they may pay "lip service" by affirming their belief in "justification by faith" - by requiring works in order to stay justified, expose the accursed and false gospel behind their doctrine. It is the SAME thing God used Paul to reveal and, through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, those that hear the voice of the Shepherd of our souls, will surrender to His leading and follow Him and WILL find rest for their souls.
Would it make you feel better if instead of "one and done" I had said "Once save always saved" or "eternal security"?
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
2Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
For which the Greek, from the Byzantine, is:
2Corinthians 1:21-22 ο δε βεβαιων ημας συν υμιν εις χριστον και χρισας ημας θεος ο και σφραγισαμενος ημας και δους τον αρραβωνα του πνευματος εν ταις καρδιαις ημων
The first word in bold above is “bebaion,” the idea of confirmation, frequently used in commercial settings to confirm a bargain. Which of course makes sense of the remaining terms used here, which are also elements of a secured contract.
The second word in bold above is “sphragisamenos,” being sealed is to be marked by the signature, signet ring, or other unique proof of identity, that we belong to God, and this sealing is done by God, who is the one taking action in this verse. We do not and cannot seal ourselves. We do not, by our own powers, have access to God’s “signet ring.”
The third bolded word above is “arrabona,” and indicates what we might loosely refer to as earnest money, but in Hebrew culture conveys more the idea of a pledge of covenant, a security given as a guarantee that the deal will go through, though we only receive part payment at the beginning. See ערב for the related Hebrew stem indicating “pledge.”
Here’s the link for the exposition on 2 Corinthians 1:21-22.
NP... I was gone for quite a while myself due to the 4th. Hope you had a great vacation.
Correction...There is no scripture that you will accept that backs up everything I have posted. The only confusion is your own.
You said my gospel was "one and done" and now you want to hedge a little? Interesting....do you imagine I have no Scripture to back up what I said?
God will not cast out His children: All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. (John 6:37)
He will not LOSE a one: "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:39,40)
He will not take the Holy Spirit from those He has sealed: In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. (Ephesians 1:13,14)
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)
So, yeah, I proclaim with grateful joy that we are saved by grace through faith and not by our works and that is what gives us eternal security. Our faith and hope is in HIM and not in ourselves. He WANTS us to have this assurance:
Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. (Hebrews 10:19-25)
Thank you for those Scriptures. I don’t really understand how people can read these passages but STILL not grasp the mercy and grace of God. How many ways does He have to say it!? We need to pray for eyes and hearts to be opened and never back down from proclaiming the Gospel - the GOOD NEWS of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. God bless you.
Look! Squirrel! (pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!)
SR: Does it matter to the finding of metaphor that He is or is not speaking of a possession? I understand you are trying to establish that the form is not possessive, but in fact, as a matter of logic, His blood and Body are His possession.
V: Jesus is the single most unique being ever in the history of the universe. He is both fully Human and fully Divine at the same time. He is made up of His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. They are not His possessions, they are His essence, they are what make Him, Him.
Of course I do not dispute the uniqueness of the person of Christ. But I am concerned that His uniqueness not be mistaken for a blank check to read into the text things that are not in fact there. Consider. How do we know of His uniqueness? From the clear words of Scripture, words that speak plainly of His humanity and divinity. In those places we only need to let the words speak their ordinary sense to gain knowledge of the extraordinary nature of their subject. We do not work the other way around, assuming in advance we will find a divine Christ and then inflating ordinary words beyond their ordinary sense to say what they really do not say. It isn't necessary. If a doctrine is true, the ordinary sense of the words teaching it will always suffice to carry the burden of that truth.
So here I cannot make sense of your statement that He does not possess, at least in some sense, His own body and blood. If He does not possess it, it is never proper, even now, to say "His body," or "His blood." Yet the Scriptures always refer to His blood as His blood:
1Cor_10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?Those are all possessives. And that last passage is most interesting. The Greek:
Eph_2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
1Pet_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1Pet_1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Jn_1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Rev_1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
My post is messed up. I kept referring to the second noun as direct object, but that requires an action verb, as you said. The right term, I think, is subjective compliment, which in this case makes sense. I don’t think it changes the analysis much, but I am sorry about the error. Should’ve waited till I got some sleep before posting.
Thanks for your enlightening dissertation. (I’m learning Koine Greek on my own.)
Google&re4g is our friend... sometimes.
I really LIKE clear wording!
I also like a direct answer to a direct question:
John 6:28-29Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Anything less yields the reverse.
12 I am writing to you, dear children,
because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13 I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.
14 I write to you, dear children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God lives in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.
It certainly is...
I can usually find myself in all these numerous replies.
I do not assume it is intentional if I am not included in the TO: box occasionally.
With all the things going on here; it's a wonder that Anything gets done right; 100% of the time!
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