Posted on 06/15/2014 4:12:26 AM PDT by markomalley
A very poor example of avoidance, but at least it is humorous. But i am not the one claiming assured infallibility.
They have not and i keep records. But why don't you answer those questions awaiting actual answers? .
I can’t even remember the name of the thread, something like the “Neverending” thread ran for years back about 1999.
Never heard of it or you in my many years and 9,518 replies. And honestly, as a former weekly and serving RC, the RC arguments are actually an argument against being a RC. But Mormons are about the fastest growing cult, so it not surprising Rome get a few, and they both operate out of sola ecclesia (the church is the supreme authority, not Scripture).
I dare you to discuss your theology and see how many non-Catholic Christians agree with every doctrine and tenet, that is why there are so many denominations.
Which is not a valid argument, as not only do RCs define “Protestant” so broadly that you can place a Unitarian/Mormon/Watchtower 747 in it, but the issue is whether Scripture being the supreme standard for Truth as the wholly inspired Word of God is the means for Biblical unity, esp. on the practical level where it counts, or whether the church is as being assuredly infallible, and whether either means prevent unholy disunity.
Meanwhile, I dare you to discuss your theology with me and see how many Catholic Christians agree with every doctrine and tenet.
Which we know they don't.
There's this for starters.....
THE RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH — There are many!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2542173/posts
Not to mention the wide variety of beliefs FRoman Catholics espouse on this forum alone.
There's one former posting RC who did not believe in hell, but rather soul annihilation. There's one the other day who was stating that souls pre-exist the body and are awaiting a body to inhabit.
There are those who absolutely agree that outside the RCC there is no salvation, while others call anyone who points that out *poorly catechized*.
There are the trads, the sedevacantists, and other splinter groups which call themselves Catholics.
Every man his own little pope.
Catholicism is no more unified than the Protestants Catholics condemn.
I quit going to NASCAR races years ago when they turned into a convention for black rappers. Dale Earnhardt Jr even did duo with a black rapper. Very few of the top drivers are even from the South anymore. California-bred yuppies like Jimmie Johnson and other yuppies. NASCAR died when it sold out to big business liberals and when Dale Sr. died.
God made it all. Now let that sink into that brain of yours.
This is a another example of the avoidance which i see, as if we were discussing what is said in Mass, yet even there some Scripture is read, and in which we see the use of polemics, and the appeal to reason. But it seems you missed out on that.
At the Last Supper Jesus did say to the Twelve: "Do this in memory of Me." Without the Church there would have been no handing down of Jesus's life, death and resurrection.
Indeed, but the issue your basis for assurance that Rome is that Church, and the premises behind that. Maybe you actually want to answer those questions .
When shown Scriptural proof contrary to RC claims, and of them forcing Scripture to support Rome, sooner or later we are told in response that the Catholic church gave us the Bible and thus we need to submit to her. Thus i am dealing with the fundamental presuppositions behind this polemical assertion.
From Wikipedia: Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church
Which merely explains what Rome says, and does not answer the foundational questions, as explained, that relate to this.
According to Catholic theology, there are several concepts important to the understanding of infallible, divine revelation: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Sacred Magisterium....The Church has been around a LOT longer than the 16th century FIRST PROTESTANT defrocked reformer FATHER Martin Luther.
Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are interpretive, and can only assuredly be and mean what the Sacred Magisterium says they are and mean. Thus it would seem your basis for assurance of religious Truth is the assured veracity of Rome, based upon historical descent, and the premise that being the historical instrument and steward of Scripture requires assured infallibility.
What are Protestants protesting today?
"Protestant" is far to broad for me to speak on its behalf, but i am protesting the unScriptural fundamental basis for determining Truth which Rome operates out of, and RCs refusal to face it.
“What staggering hypocricy”
Well that’s that’s something you certainly know something about.
AMEN. Absolute fact.
"What is your instrumental basis for assurance of truth?"
Since we already agreed upon Jesus Christ as the ultimate basis for assurance of the truth, I suppose you're asking "What does Jesus Christ use as His instrument?" That would be the Church, as it is the Body of Christ.
That term ("Body of Christ") entails that the Church is living; is united under one Head; is animated by the Holy Spirit; is composed of different parts which work together; that not all have the same gifts or to the same extent ("1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?"); that they are all "members" of each other, that they all need each other, etc.
"Is an assuredly infallible magisterium essential for determination of Truth, both oral and written, and including which men are of God?"
Not sure what you mean by "an assuredly infallible magisterium". Not every level of teaching is infallible. In the Catholic Church, infallibility in the first instance would be an attribute of what has been handed down from the Apostles, since public revelation closed with the death of the last Apostle.
"What was handed down" would be the Apostles' written teachings, their oral teachings (which show up in their disciples' writings), and their teaching by example (which shows up in their disciples' rule of prayer, particularly liturgical; and their moral rules, shown by their way of life.)
On this view, the term "Sacred Tradition" (as contrasted to "any-old-human tradition") consists of what has been passed on to us by the Apostles:
This is what the authentic Magisterium has to draw from: also called the "Deposit of Faith."
I'd have to go through something like John Henry Newman's "Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine" to show how further understanding of this "deposit of faith" comes from reason working on the original revealed truth to draw out consequences that were not obvious at first.
In other words, there are understandings which are the fruit of study, prayer, and the workings of the Holy Spirit which become manifest over a period of time; they are logically required by, or reasonably inferred from, the solid evidence of Scripture and Sacred Tradition; and they cannot contradict this evidence.
This process of legitimate development (as contrasted to innovation or corruption) gets pushed along as new events raise new questions, and that stimulates new thinking, often under the spur of controversy and crisis. So bishops and theologians and the Christifideles laici (lay people faithful to Christ) discuss, reason, pray, think, and struggle. Finally a way to answer the new questions, conformable with the Deposit of Faith, is found through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and confirmed. (Peter's appointed office and duty is to confirm the brethren.)
At this point, I must break off unfinished because I have to get out and water and weed before it gets totally dark. I may get back to this later; but meanwhile, it gives you something to work on.
Good evening, daniel1212!
Through purely natural means, of course.
What purely natural means was used to bring about "the virgin birth?" Perhaps in vitro fertilization?
Three quarters of the article is talking about the Knoxville area increase including the title. Even the Bishop states what I did more or less .
Knoxville Bishop Richard F. Stika said the church is growing from rising minority populations, mainly Hispanics. Knoxville recently established a Vietnamese parish. And this part of the country is attracting more retirees and families, many of whom are Catholic.
"We're a growing Church, both in people who are choosing to become Catholic as well as people moving in from out of town," Stika told the diocesan newspaper, The East Tennessee Catholic.
This area in the past 20 years has literally been over ran by illegals. On Saturday night there are about as many Hispanics at Wally World as area residents. Or it was such when I quit shopping at that one. Just because someone came from Mexico, Latin America, or wherever does not mean they were Catholic or Christian when they got here. On the other hand the RCC does have a substantial charity/assistance programs.
I lived in Knoxviile city limits about 3 years growing up in a neighborhood called Inskip/Norwood. It was primarily blue collar middle income. Today it is heavily Hispanic. It is also in the middle of I-75.
There are several factors bringing them here. I-75. I-40, I-81. A major north south transport {human trafficking} route and yes truck loads of illegals pass through all the time. I mean U-Haul loads. Look at a map of Chattanooga. A split point to Nashville or Knoxville.
Another issue is unfortunately Knoxville has become a homeless haven or hub now well known even into the northeast. Locals know why. There is a homeless program here that is far larger than what should be needed for the typical homeless population in a city this size. That program runs about 7-8 thrift stores here plus gets private donations. Again who are they going to refer people too? Meaning what churches? Protestant churches aren't as apt to have illegal friendly programs is what I'm saying.
I'm not saying the RCC isn't growing through out the nation. But in this area the numbers are likely skewed by other issues including an abundance of social services sponsored by the church. Think about this. Public schools want birth certificates right? Become a member of RCC and the education is paid plus no paperwork. Or this used to be so. I know a mom who hid an adoption in the RCC by keeping her son in Catholic schools. Why did she join the RCC at first? Because she was practically destitute at the time, had an adopted son to raise by herself, and needed help. This was many years ago.
Should read :This area in the past 20 years has literally been over ran by illegals. On Friday & Saturday night there are about as many Hispanics at Wally World in Oak Ridge as area residents shopping.
“Virgin birth”
I didn’t know this FR message board was for non-Christians.
As an aged someone who often grocery shops late and on weekends at Wally World, I can tell you these Hispanics you want to point to are polite, clean, family oriented and their children are beautiful little ones. The Hispanic families are several steps above liberal bilge spittlists who have infected Floriduh and Western Tennessee.
Actually, only two paragraphs discussed people moving into the area (illegal aliens or carpetbaggers from the NE or anybody else):
Knoxville Bishop Richard F. Stika said the church is growing from rising minority populations, mainly Hispanics. Knoxville recently established a Vietnamese parish. And this part of the country is attracting more retirees and families, many of whom are Catholic."We're a growing Church, both in people who are choosing to become Catholic as well as people moving in from out of town," Stika told the diocesan newspaper, The East Tennessee Catholic.
Don't get me wrong: I understand that the area is being overrun by illegals. My area is as well. (And where my mother lives, in South Carolina, is just as bad)
And, as I said before, I recognize that the Catholic Church is shrinking into utter irrelevancy and, likely within the next generation or two, utter oblivion.
So, don't get me wrong: I am not trying to be one of these happy-happy all is wonderful with the Church people. Hardly.
But the fact of the matter is that this article is talking about converts.
The ones I saw were the men buying beer for that nights party and others taking a wiz out in the parking lot after walking by a restroom coming out the door. Another Wally at the other end of the county this is not going on. Why? Because it is not a refuge town. Oak Ridge is now basically a refuge city. In that respect under DEM control Knoxville has become such now. The local paper up till about a year ago ran fluff pieces of the plight of the illegals.
O...
K...
Hey Nana!
Got any data on this thread’s subject you’d like to share?
Nope the center of the diocese is in Knoxville way north of me...
A rough comparison might be how God shared His teachings in a developing fashion in the Bible, starting with the truths and teachings of many centuries found in the Old Testament (such as the Ten Commandments and the Psalms), and the developing and legitimate expansion of those earlier teachings later on by Jesus Christ in the New Testament, bringing much greater clarity and human understanding to those teachings over time, using human instruments (the people who actually wrote the "books" of the Bible) to pass on those clarified teachings to the world.
Thanks for posting!
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