Posted on 06/08/2014 8:26:19 PM PDT by Phinneous
Jews defending Judaism with the best defense...
Best proof for a Christian is that there has been NO TEMPLE AND NO PLACE FOR sacrifice for about 2000 years.
The last sacrifice was Jesus on the cross, even though the people went through the motions of sacrifice for another 40 years.
God gave the people in the desert 40 years. When Christ died he gave Israel 40 years to change, then Titus destroyed their place of sacrifice.
James was so right! Wow! I’m not kidding.... when he apparently says “...and yet offended in one point....”
We totally believe that with one fault, a person is judged completely wicked. The good news is he can repent fully in an instant. So we don’t agree with James on the rest of...probably everything.
Your first part from Romans, is right in line with what the Rabbi was teaching in the class...if you can’t convert them, smear them. We’re pretty content that we know what G-d wants of us (He for one wants me to go to bed...but I just can’t.)
Like I said to Greetings_Puny_Humans, we’ve both been waiting a long time, ey? Our real prophets have told us Jews that the service of our lips replaces the sacrifices (for now) and repentance can be done in an instant. Jews have laws for everything (even how to pee, as GPH points out sarcastically but truthfully, without being able to fathom the reasons, ever)
On repentance, the way for a Jew:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/911887/jewish/Teshuvah.htm
29 If you have ever read C.S. Lewis, you might have come across a phrase that went something like this...
~ He was either just who he said he was, the Christ, or He was a total lunatic, like someone who thought he was a fried egg ~ I have made my choice. The rest of you have been given free will to make your own.
33 “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
1898 – 1963 – C.S. Lewis: British novelist, poet, academic, medievalist, literary critic, essayist, lay theologian, and Christian apologist. He died in Oxford, England, on the same day, 11/22/1963, but before, POTUS #35 JFK was assassinated in Dallas, TX. Fellow British author, Aldous Huxley (Brave New World, © 1932), passed away in Los Angeles, CA, later on the same day after Kennedy’s assassination. Huxley had taught British author George Orwell at Eton.
Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis, p54-56, © 1952
Lewis's “trilemma” is an argument intended to prove the divinity of Jesus. It was the proposal of a trilemma (mentioned by others the previous century) that was popularised by C.S. Lewis in a BBC radio talk and in his writings. It is sometimes summarized either as "Lunatic, Liar, or Lord", or as "Mad, Bad, or God". According to Bart Ehrman, an American New Testament scholar, 'there could be a fourth option – legend'. Lewis himself denied the accounts of Jesus were legends: "I have read a great deal of legend and I am quite clear that they are not the same sort of thing."
Richard Colson had been a special counsel to POTUS #37 RMN and was convicted of obstruction of justice in the Watergate Scandal. He credited the Lewis trilemma as the basis for his conversion to Christianity. In 1974, he served 7 months in the federal Maxwell Prison in Montgomery, AL, as the 1st member of the Nixon administration to be incarcerated for Watergate-related charges. His mid-life conversion to Christianity sparked a radical life change that led to the founding of his non-profit ministry Prison Fellowship and to a focus on Christian worldview teaching and training.
Only time for one more tonight, but I KNEW you were typing up a long megilla!
So, discussions on rabbis for later, on your last point:
“And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.” (Mar 2:23-28)
WE take this to demonstrate that he was a Torah observant Jew of the Written and Oral Laws, wherein we teach clearly that in a matter of preserving life, “violate one Sabbath to keep many future Sabbaths.”
It’s lock-step with the Rabbi’s presentation. Your other quotes I’ll have to look into. It seems to me Mark ad-libbed the last part.
At the end of the class, the Rabbi speaks of Christendom pulling itself apart. Were you part of this fine thread at all GPH? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3165205/posts
I’ll wait in silence I guess. (Serenity now Serenity now!) (to quote Mr. Costanza)
Sorry about that. Which part? I’m trying to give only when I got (and trying to make it real not perceived getting)
Which comment was (conditionally) nice?
It doesn’t follow for Jews. We believe that we are deputized and consecrated by G-d to bring Him “down” into the world through the commandments. See prior posts regarding sin. As for “original sin” ie, we are all doomed...(if not ‘saved’) we simply don’t believe it. We have our rules of repentance, long before JC.
The Jews do indeed agree with Christ on the matter, but Christ's larger point is that He is the Messiah, and, therefore, also the Lord of the Sabbath, being "greater than" the temple itself:
"Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." (Mat 12:5-8)
I’ll wait in silence I guess.
I have no idea what you are going on about, but considering your silence to most of what I said, you are projecting.
G-d and His prophet Moses just put the Law in my heart anew last Wednesday...the 3326th time since the original revelation at Sinai. We actually never stop counting.
FOLLOWING as carefully and to the best of one’s G-d-given ability the written-down rules is EXACTLY what we strive for. Lest you then think the Jew doesn’t have a spiritual side, just dry, route law, one of the laws themselves is to KNOW G-d. So the Christian world’s (and most of the Jewish world’s) lack of insight into Judaism can’t be helped.
Well written, FReeper. Very well written.
The Jews do indeed agree with Christ on the matter
From my proof text, and your concurrence, he agrees with us on the matter. [of the Oral Law and Sabbath violation.]
I’m addressing what I can without further research at this hour. Why does it always get interesting so late...or during work hours?
“We wait in peace, as the prophecies have been fulfilled. You wait in silence...”
So again, I wait in silence...for G-d to send Moshiach (and for Christendom to unravel, like in the end of the original posted class and on this thread ‘celebrating’ the reformation: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3165205/posts)
Other than that, this is a valuable explication of the Jewish origins and context of the New Testament.
Did you listen to the whole thing? Just curious. I post a lot of classes because I assume everyone is downloading audio and listening to it while conducting end-of-day duties like dish washing, etc...
You're taking me out of context. In the idea of saving yourself from starvation, I said that they agreed. Christ did not argue from oral tradition, but from the scripture, in response to the objections made by the Pharisees, citing David, and also the Priests who violate the Sabbath in the temple, citing the Law, applying it to Himself "for there is one here who is greater than the temple" etc. Your claim that Christ was citing oral tradition is your invention. It's not in the passage.
So again, I wait in silence...for G-d to send Moshiach (and for Christendom to unravel, like in the end of the original posted class and on this thread ‘celebrating’ the reformation: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3165205/posts)
If you want to debate something about some other thread, then ping me to that thread. Do not keep spamming me to respond to another thread in this one.
I understand that adhering to a written law sharpens one’s ability to receive it in the heart as well as the cerebral cortex. And it does seem dry and meaningless on occasion. But that’s just from a short-term perspective. I happen to have great respect for the Jewish people, as well as displayable physical evidence of following their traditions. But I think if the traditions don’t sink all the way down into the heart, they’re worthless.
He’s not wrong, at least entirely. His understanding is incomplete. It’s based on the idea that God would not abandon His promise He made to Israel.
As I read the New Testament, Christ did come to correct the flaws that had entered Judaism since their return from exile. He didn’t come to change the Jewish faith, but to save it from itself. However, Christ did teach, in principle through the parables, that their promise from God, would be taken from them and given to those who would receive Him.
That is what the Rabbi is missing here. When Christ told the parable of the landowner, and asked what should happen to those who killed his son, it was a warning and the Jewish leaders pronounced their doom.
When I say this, I am not saying God has abandoned Israel, but it’s no longer promises made exclusively to the Jews.
The proof of the pudding is in the tasting. What happens to a life that is deeply invested in Jesus Christ?
I’ll tell you what! A Spirit is discovered that is about Love first and foremost, and everything else follows from that.
Ultimately they can only be descriptive, as how God has arranged for the best life to be conducted. It’s the actual spirit of God that has to be let into a heart to DO it. Crucial distinction here. There are judgmental and self righteous people all around with this rule and that rule and the other rule, but few with the grace of God.
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