Posted on 05/02/2014 12:28:06 AM PDT by GonzoII
Yes, I read it; it is written on my heart. James contradicts what you write. I will stick with the Scripture, all of it, instead of Martin Luther or John Calvin. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Because faith without works is a dead faith.
Read it however you will. If you stick with all scripture, you'd best be figuring out how to reconcile Ephesians 2:8-10, all of Romans, Galatians, and more to one misinterpreted (By the fallible men of the Magesterium, as well as fallible popes) passage in James.
None of which, by the way, demonstrates biblical proof of purgatory. Which, after all, is what the thread is about.
I know the mercy and grace of God is far greater than any of us could ever think or imagine so we don't know for sure how He will deal with some who cling to their religion, convinced that what they are being told is the truth, even when it is not. He will be merciful. This disagreement over the subject of "Purgatory" is really, at the heart, a denial of grace, or a lack of a fuller understanding of how God's grace operates. I sincerely pray that those who believe in and follow Christ will be pleasantly surprised when they die and realize they are in Heaven and Purgatory doesn't exist at all. I doubt any of them will be angry they didn't get to go there first and that they rejoice eternally because:
Praise His holy name!
It is best to stick with the scripture rather than change it to support a doctrine of men.
Read it however you will. If you stick with all scripture, you'd best be figuring out how to reconcile Ephesians 2:8-10, all of Romans, Galatians, and more to one misinterpreted (By the fallible men of the Magesterium, as well as fallible popes) passage in James.
Rather than ignore James, I must remember how Peter specifically warned believers not to misinterpret Paul, which they do to their own destruction. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
None of which, by the way, demonstrates biblical proof of purgatory. Which, after all, is what the thread is about.
Biblical proof is an interesting term. It depends on which texts one accepts as Canon and how one understands and believes them. It would be difficult to prove the doctrine of the Trinity to someone who apriori dismisses it, especially if they exclude some of the text and interpret it differently.
Matters not if someone is Roman Catholic or any number of other denominations. People build a doctrine on one verse or passage without balancing them off of the rest of Scripture.
So what?
If you’ve never watched Jimmy Swaggart you certainly had me fooled.
No comment........
So tell us how you reconcile one verse in James with these verses?
Salvation by grace by believing
John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Ephesians 2:1-10And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
John 1:11-13 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Acts 16:27-31 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Romans 3:20-30 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”
He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
He has a resident Catholic-basher on the show. The only reason for being part of the panel is to bash the Catholic Church. You should apply for the job.
1) I Samuel 28 King Saul, The witch of Endor and the Prophet Samuel.
2)Luke 16:19-31 Lazarus and the Rich Man
7 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Notice that Abraham did not say "there is no coming back from the dead," nor did he say "you heathen believer in ghosts and things once dead, you are d***** to the lowest h3ll" No, all he said was if someone came back from the dead no one would be persuaded to act differently.
3) Luke 24:39 Quote from Jesus
Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
Note again. Jesus did not say there were NO GHOSTS He said,"a ghost does not have flesh and bones..." The implication being that there are/were ghosts in the first place.
Not that they are a prevalent as the Catholic church makes them out to be, but they are not to be discounted and may just a natural part of life (death)in regards to the human journey on earth.
Very true... sadly, it seems like too many like to do that very thing.
Hoss
I changed nothing. It's called grammar. Faith without works is dead. What is the it that is dead? Faith. All I did was to paraphrase it. It changed the meaning not one whit; please don't try to infer that I changed anything. I didn't.
Rather than ignore James, I must remember how Peter specifically warned believers not to misinterpret Paul, which they do to their own destruction.
Oddly enough the very counsel you have been receiving here; would that you only receive it and learn from it! Would that you heed Peter's warning! The misinterpretations here are from the Roman Catholic Church! Purgatory's existence is but ONE lie that Roman Catholicism foists upon its adherents, seeking to warp God's Word in order to shoehorn a man-made "tradition" into their minds to their misfortune.
James' scripture fits into the other examples shown to you here -- there is no contradiction in scripture -- and the minority of James agrees with the majority of the remaining scripture. To try to reverse that does not follow the simple truths presented.
Ahhh... the "Trinity" argument. Of course. Because it's not plainly written, the argument can be made that the Godhead is not Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Droll attempt at best. The problem here is that other, obvious scripture clearly indicates the nature of the Godhead and it does not have to be put through semantic gymnastics to show the same. Purgatory, on the other hand, has no reasonable presence. Instead, non-Canonical scripture is used, Canonical scripture is used and both must be twisted, pulled, stretched, and just plainly misrepresented in order to have some small indication of this fantasy doctrine. Then, the Church stamps it with its imprimatur and presto-changeo! It's real!
Not quite so.
Still waiting on proof of Purgatory, though.
Hoss
BTW, James was in the room and did not protest.
GOOD point.
Hoss
Dead faith isn’t really faith at all is it. As James said, “I will show you my faith by my works” which indicates a living faith. James didn’t say the living faith didn’t save. He said that a living faith exhibited by works that it is indeed a living faith is what saves. He confirmed that by saying “I will show you my faith by my works. Man can have works without faith but it will not save him. Man cannot have saving faith without works but it’s not the works that saves.
My point exactly.
He said that a living faith exhibited by works that it is indeed a living faith is what saves. He confirmed that by saying “I will show you my faith by my works. Man can have works without faith but it will not save him.
Exactly.
Thanks CB; more plainly stated than I tried to state it but exactly what is meant in the passage. Unlike the Roman Catholic position that faith AND works saves, this passage is clear: faith only saves; the works we do are because of our faith!
And STILL no evidence of a Biblical purgatory. :)
Hoss
Of course not. It’s because they can’t because purgatory doesn’t exist. The Catholics don’t understand that those faithful believers prior to Jesus death on the cross were in a place that was eliminated after Jesus freed them. Catholics miss a great deal about the significance of the death and resurrection of Christ.
Truth plainly spoken. Roman Catholics miss a great deal by failing to take God at his word instead of creating "tradition" out of whole cloth.
Hoss
I find that Protestants typically know very little about Catholicism, and even less about pre-Revolution (a.k.a., "Reformation") Christian history.
Odd... this discussion wasn't about the history of pre-Reformation Catholicism, but instead about the issue of the falsehood of purgatory. In that regard, I find that Roman Catholics seem to know a lot about what they are supposed to believe based on tradition, but very little about the truth of scripture and the truth of the Gospel.
Hoss
So true.
“Few Americans hate the Catholic Church,. but millions hate what they think is the Catholic Church.” —Bishop Fulton Sheen
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