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Is the Church Over the Bible, or the Bible Over the Church?
Canon Fodder ^ | June 27, 2012 | Michael J. Kruger

Posted on 04/20/2014 12:50:38 PM PDT by Gamecock

The perennial question in the debate over sola Scriptura is whether the church is over the Bible or the Bible is over the church. If you take the latter position, then you are (generally speaking) a Protestant who believes the Scriptures, and the Scriptures alone, are the only infallible rule and therefore the supreme authority over the church. But, here is the irony: Roman Catholics also claim to be “under” the authority of the Bible.

The Roman Catholic church insists that the Scripture is always superior to the Magisterium. Dei Verbum declares, “This teaching office is not above the Word of God, but serves it” (2.10), and the Catholic Catechism declares: “Yet, this Magisterium is not superior to the word of God, but its servant” (86). However, despite these qualifications, one still wonders how Scripture can be deemed the ultimate authority if the Magisterium is able to define, determine, and interpret the Scripture in the first place. Moreover, the Magisterium seems to “discover” doctrines that are not consistent with the original meaning of Scripture itself—e.g,, the immaculate conception, purgatory, papal infallibility and the like. Thus, despite these declarations from Rome, residual concerns remain about whether the Magisterium functionally has authority over the Scriptures.

My friend and colleague James Anderson has written a helpful blog post that brings even further clarity to this issue. He begins by observing the judicial activism that happens all too often in the American political system. Judges go well beyond the original intent of the constitution and actually create new laws from the bench. He then argues:

What has happened in the US system of government almost exactly parallels what happened in the government of the Christian church over the course of many centuries, a development that finds its fullest expression in the Roman Catholic Church.

The Bible serves as the constitution of the Christian faith. It is the covenant documentation. It defines the Christian church: what constitutes the church, what is its mission, who runs the church and how it should be run, what are the responsibilities of the church, what is the scope of its authority, what laws govern the church and its members, and so forth. Once the constitution has been written, the task of the ‘judges’ (the elders/overseers of the church) is to interpret and apply it according to its original intent. Their task is not to create new laws or to come up with “interpretations” that cannot be found in the text of the constitution itself (interpreted according to original intent) and would never have crossed the minds of the “founding fathers” (Eph. 2:20).

Yet that’s just what happened over the course of time with the development of episcopacy, the rise of the papacy, and the increasing weight given to church tradition. To borrow Grudem’s phrasing: If the Bible didn’t say something something that the bishops wanted it to say, or thought it should say, they could claim to “discover” new doctrines in the Bible — purgatory, indulgences, apostolic succession, papal infallibility, etc. — and no one would have power to overrule them.

Adapting the candid statement of Chief Justice Hughes, today’s Roman Catholic might well put it thus: We are under the Bible, but the Bible is what the Pope says it is.” In fact, that’s exactly how things stand in practice. Functionally the Pope has become the highest governing authority in his church: higher even than the Bible. The church has been derailed by “ecclesial activism”.

Thus, even though Rome claims that the Bible is its ultimate authority, practically speaking it is the church that is the ultimate authority. Rome is committed to sola ecclesia. And this clarifies the real difference between Protestants and Catholics. Something has to be the ultimate authority. It is either Scripture or the church.


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To: D-fendr

D-fndr wrote:
“You can use whatever version you wish. Theres nothin in the Bible that says you can’t pick whatever you want for yourself.”

My point, exactly. Yet, that DID happen to ME, which is why I mentioned it.

My first adult bible, was Today’s English Version, with the little drawings in it. Ergo, the Ezekiel reference.

The pastor of a satellite-of-a-megachurch was the one who corrected me.


61 posted on 04/21/2014 7:27:30 AM PDT by Terry L Smith
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To: G Larry
There was no Christian canon until the 4th century, so what was the authority prior to that point?

Well; there WAS; it was just scattered all over the place.

62 posted on 04/21/2014 8:24:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Just mythoughts
God has much to say about shepherd-less churches whose traditions make His WORD null and void.



NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "

NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "

NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."

NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."
 
NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'

NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '

NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.

NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "

NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"

NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

63 posted on 04/21/2014 8:26:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: vladimir998; NKP_Vet
I see you boys are up to your old WE b superior routine...
64 posted on 04/21/2014 8:28:03 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

As you have made abundantly clear in the past, you see only what you want to see.


65 posted on 04/21/2014 8:36:33 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Elsie

“scattered all over the place”

is the definition of NO CANON!!!


66 posted on 04/21/2014 9:47:46 AM PDT by G Larry (There's the Beef!)
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To: G Larry; Elsie
Definition of "no canon" you say?

In regards to the NT, what was finally settled upon (after sorting out later arising writings) but that which the Apostles as direct witnesses wrote, along with the writer of Luke and Acts who was amid and living among those first witnesses, if not one himself also?

In that way the NT was more imposed upon the early church as soon as we look beyond those original disciples in defining who or what is the church.

The NT texts were well known among all, from the earliest beginnings-- even soon after the various epistles of Paul were written, for those did circulate among the many.

As to that which there was ever much doubt (looking at the contents of NT as we know it today) is John's Revelation (not fully accepted by all, from it's first circulating among the various congregation) and the epistle to the Hebrews, with this last having not been as well circulated among the further-from Israel locales, in comparison to the Gospels, Paul's other letters, those few of Peter, James & Jude, etc. Which reminds me...some were hesitant towards the small book of Jude, yet that fairly early became to be included also.

Here we have the core -- from earliest times.

It was not those of Rome who "defined" the canon much at all, for if one is to investigate the formation of canon, other than the very early Tertullian--- writers of the "Latin" church, in regards to issues of canon were rather on the sidelines until centuries later.

And again--- what became inclusive of NT canon but that which was indeed imposed upon the church?

It does no good to now to point to Rome as some source for that, for they (those of the Latin branch of the church) were themselves recipients as were all others --- other than the original Apostles, and perhaps Luke if that man was not one who had witnessed Christ personally & directly himself.

67 posted on 04/21/2014 10:49:45 AM PDT by BlueDragon (Some drink at the fountain of knowledge...others just gargle)
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To: vladimir998
As you have made abundantly clear in the past, you see only what you want to see.

True.

There is NO Scriptural justification for the loonie things that the RCC says about Mary these days.

68 posted on 04/21/2014 11:44:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: D-fendr
Then it should be clear that those who claim to be led in different directions to different doctrines by the one Holy Spirit are in error.

Two devout followers of Jesus Christ had different doctrines on some important issues. One was a Jew by law and by birth. The other was a Jew by birth and Roman by law. Who did the correction? Yet neither man considered the other to be the leader {Pope} of the church nor submitted to the other ones authority.

So by who's authority and guidance was Paul under in Galatians chapter 2? Peters? Or The Holy Spirit? Read on the Chapter 3. Who receives The Holy Spirit? Just Priest? No. Just Deacons? No. Rather we are given The Holy Spirit by Faith. We have free will to listen and obey the guidance given us. Will man error? Yes. From The Holy Spirit comes correction. The instrument used may be Paul or it may be Martin Luther. It might be Billy Graham or a Pope that brings reform of Christ teachings over church dogma.

Most Christian Churches are not that far off the mark. They have legalist errors made by man but do not deny Christ as Lord and Savior and that is the key to this. This jealousy Christ dealt with when the Disciples came to Him telling Him other men were using His name healing and casting out demons

Mark ch 9 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me. And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward. And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

The churches even at that point has already gone out and The Word Of GOD The Gospel preached even by layman. The men Christ Disciples saw were of the many sheep and many flocks Christ spoke of.

69 posted on 04/21/2014 12:11:46 PM PDT by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: cva66snipe
From The Holy Spirit comes correction.

For all the length of reply, you end up with the same problem: according to whom?

It should be clear that those who claim to be led in different directions to different doctrines by the one Holy Spirit are in error.

70 posted on 04/21/2014 12:33:46 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: cva66snipe

You read the epistles and acts and completely miss that there is authority in the apostolic Church. Not you.


71 posted on 04/21/2014 1:27:05 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
It should be clear that those who claim to be led in different directions to different doctrines by the one Holy Spirit are in error.

So then you would saying what you did deny that both Paul and Peter were lead by The Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit can not be in error. Churches can be in error be it Baptist, Catholic, whatever as well as even their highest leaders can be in error and in fact acting away from GOD's Will and guidance of The Holy Spirit. That is why The Holy Spirit which dwells in believers was given.

72 posted on 04/21/2014 1:40:33 PM PDT by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: D-fendr
You read the epistles and acts and completely miss that there is authority in the apostolic Church. Not you.

I've read them over and over. Paul's authority came not from Peter, The Disciples, Other Apostles, nor any named church. His authority came from GOD by Divine Revelation same as Peter confessed Christ as The Son Of GOD. Paul was not under Peter's control nor did he need Peter's approval.

Did Paul establish some churches outside of Judea and Jerusalem and oversee them? Yes. So did the others so did ones who were not Disciples nor likely Apostles. When the early believers came under persecution following the death of Stephen it sent believers out in many places spreading The Gospel.

Praise be to GOD our salvation doesn't hinge on the doings nor authority of men here on earth. Praise be to GOD man was set free of the old Temple Priest Oligarchy which held it's powers over men often leading to abuses and even placing Christ on the cross. We no longer need a Priest to intercede. We have one we can go to one on one directly whom He alone will intercede for us before The Father. His name is Jesus Christ.

73 posted on 04/21/2014 1:56:32 PM PDT by cva66snipe ((Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?))
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To: cva66snipe

well stated.


74 posted on 04/21/2014 2:32:44 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: cva66snipe
So then you would saying what you did deny that both Paul and Peter were lead by The Holy Spirit?

Now where do you get that?

Churches can be in error . ..That is why The Holy Spirit which dwells in believers was given.

So you don't err and still claim to speak for the Holy Spirit? Are you your own 'church'? Or is it just that you can't be in error because you're not a 'church'? Churches err and you don't? What's your position here?

75 posted on 04/21/2014 3:10:04 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: cva66snipe
His authority came from GOD..

Yeppers. When Christ established His Church and gave it authority. You seem to ignore that part. You are your own authority now, because you say so?

76 posted on 04/21/2014 3:12:18 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr
those who claim to follow Jesus

According to.. you?

According to God. Where did I say I determined that? Why the adversarial 'tude? What exactly are you contending that I said incorrectly? What don't you agree with what I said?

Christ did not establish a country nor write a constitution, nor make you the supreme court.

Did I say that Jesus "established a country"? He WILL, however, establish a kingdom one day here and He will rule it in righteousness and with rod a of iron. Do you not believe that? He also ensured that the word of God - the FULL counsel of God - was preserved and the continued revelation by the Holy Spirit, who carried along "holy men of God", was written and preserved. He promised His disciples that the Holy Spirit would "bring to your remembrance everything that I have said to you" (John 14:26). They already had the example of the Old Testament prophets writing down the revelation they received from God, why wouldn't they also do the same?

The Holy Scriptures are our authority for determining what is the truth of our faith. God did a pretty good job of speaking plainly and succinctly so that nobody has any excuse for not knowing His will or His plan of salvation. Anyone who claims to be speaking the truth must and should be examined by God's word to see if they are right. I almost understand the resistance to accepting this fact - being as some hold to a religion that views Scripture as a servant to it rather than the other way - but they would be wrong to view Divinely-inspired Scripture that way. They are truly fighting against God Himself.

77 posted on 04/21/2014 3:27:50 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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To: boatbums
The Holy Scriptures are our authority for determining what is the truth of our faith.

When the Holy Scriptures type the replies and arguments and beliefs here, I'll believe it is not you that is the authority.

Until then, I hope you will take a second to reflect on that and realize how incredibly and obviously false the foundation of your position is.

78 posted on 04/21/2014 3:35:17 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Salvation
The Church was here before the Bible

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2Timothy 3:16

God was here before the church.
79 posted on 04/21/2014 3:57:01 PM PDT by Old Yeller (In Latin, the word sinister means left. Which is appropriate for left-wingers.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; Gamecock
The books of the New Testament were defined around the year, 400 A.D., by the the local Councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397, 419). This is the canon that Luther inherited, and which was dogmatically defined by Trent.

Actually, they were received and accepted as Divinely-inspired scripture long before. From The Formation of the New Testament Canon:

    Evidence of the Church's Response

    The Muratorian Canon: This document gives a list of the canonical books with some comments. It was discovered in 1740 by the antiquarian L.A. Muratori. It is believed to have been written in Rome towards the end of the second century. It is the earliest extant document in which the canon is treated in a formal fashion. It states what documents are to be regarded as canonical and which are to be rejected. 22 It is unfortunately a fragment. The meaning is also obscure at points. It lists all the books of our New Testament except Hebrews, James and 2 Peter. There is also a question as to whether 1 Peter is mentioned. It includes one book, the Apocalypse of Peter (2 Peter?), which was subsequently rejected. The author of the Muratorian Canon himself has his hesitations about the book, for he notes that some do not accept it. The main value of the Muratorian Canon is that it indicates the books which were recognized as canonical in the Roman church towards the end of the second century. In this document we are already very close to our New Testament.

    Irenaeus (ca.130-200), whose writings are contemporary with the Muratorian list, presents the same picture. His evidence is significant in that he was a rather ecumenical figure in his day. He spent his earlier life in Asia Minor and his later life in Gaul. He was also in close touch with Rome. He does not seem to have had Hebrews in his canon, and there is some uncertainty as to whether he accepted the general epistles (except 1 Peter, 1 and 2 John). He refers to the Shepherd of Hermas as "scripture" but does not include it in the list of apostolic writings.

    Tertullian (ca.160-220) is our authority for Africa. He appears to have had 22 books in his canon — the four Gospels, Acts, the thirteen epistles of Paul, 1 Peter, 1 John, Jude and Revelation. He did not treat Hebrews as canonical.

    Origen (ca.185-254) in the East has a good deal to say about the canon. According to F.F. Bruce, "He acknowledged the four canonical Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the Pauline epistles and Hebrews, 1 Peter, 1 John and Revelation as 'undisputed' books." 24 Origen does acknowledge, however, that Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, James and Jude were rejected by some.

The formal creation of a "canon" or rule of faith came about as a result of various heretical movements that challenged the already accepted body of sacred writings passed on through the Apostles.

Sola Scriptura, while un-Biblical, was also impractical, at least until the advent of the printing press. No one could afford a complete Bible (handwritten on scrolls). Nor could a significant number even be manufactured to make the doctrine practical in any meaningful sense.

Since few books of any kind existed, most people were illiterate, for more than a millenium.

TODAY, 800 MILLION ADULTS ARE ILLITERATE.

How does Sola Scriptura work for them?

The same way as always, those who COULD read taught and handed down the teachings from God to those who couldn't. Did having a segment of the populace unable to read negate the holy Scriptures believed, obeyed and preserved prior to Jesus' coming to earth? That was the example the early Christians continued under the leading of the Holy Spirit. Being unable to read in NO way diminishes the FACT that the Holy Spirit inspired prophets to speak God's word and record it for posterity and the people of God commanded to obey it.

Far from Scripture opposing Sola Scriptura, we have multiple passages that confirm the authority of God's word. The "church" is and has always been the servant of God's revealed truth and is tasked with being the buttress and supporter of the truth. The early creeds, developed to dispute heretics, affirm the truths AS revealed in the Bible. Where else would they have come from? Jesus used Scripture to confirm His role, the truths He spoke and the truths He intended to be passed down through the church age. There really is no human authority that has preeminence over God's word and those who presume they do will answer to God for their error.

80 posted on 04/21/2014 4:02:41 PM PDT by boatbums (Simul justis et peccator.)
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