Posted on 04/13/2014 7:37:12 AM PDT by CharlesOConnell
A fine young man, a father of children and a professional, approached me at church: "What do you think of that Pope John-Paul? He's no good." Others also didn't like him. I put a magnetic sign on my car, it was met with sneers: 5 pictures of the Pope immediately after being shot, in 1/6th of the space, "In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood." – Hebrews 12:4
Yet I also didn't like Pope John Paul II, not in himself, but because of the cult of personality around him. I love Pope John Paul, yet I dislike hearing his name appended with "The Great", as if I am expected to join in perpetual enthusiasm about his person, regardless of how well I correspond to his message and mission.
I loved Cardinal Ratzinger, but didn't notice such a rabid welcome for him as Pope Benedict XVI, so I felt freer to attend to Him, even despite controversies like the Regensburg Lecture or various public relations disasters caused by those who sought to manage him. I was happy when his resignation finally thwarted the manipulations of those who were secretly working against him.
Now I have seen enough to ignore those who get all hot and bothered by Pope Francis upsetting the apple cart, instead concentrating on the message of the man himself. If it were all peaches and cream, so that my comfort weren't afflicted by Francis' message, what use would it all be?
Jesus remarked that "foxes have dens and birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to rest his head". Matthew 8:20. His followers were ready for him to expel the Romans and restore the Davidic Kingdom. Yet he told them to go out without even taking any money.
Why should we only listen and respond to messages, and messengers, that we like? What use is it, how can Christ's message transform us, if we only hear what confirms us in what we're already doing?
who’s chaining you to the pew?
I don't care who the Pope is either because HE isn't the one who makes all the rules. JESUS did that and appointed Peter as His Vicar on earth to continue His work.
There have been bad popes but it didn't destroy His Church. NO ONE can do that.
Lucifer tried and keeps on trying but he won't win either. HIS "kingdom" is eternal damnation. Yikes, it scares me just to write it.
#22 -- read it. (it is in English)
Links otherwise provided to you, click on those.
Mash here instead, for that was the originally intended destination. Speaking of "fish" of course...
ping to #44.
forgot to add your handle to the previous comment.
Apostles are an office that existed at one time, forming the foundation of the church, as the Apostle Paul wrote in Ephesians...
"Together, we are his house, built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And the cornerstone is Christ Jesus himself."
However, we are discussing "pope" not being an office of the church. It never appears an as office under any name, including "pope."
There are also gifts given to the church, but none of them are popes either. "The successor to the Apostles were bishops."
Sorry, your choices are these:
Elder
Deacon
Qualifications are laid out in Scripture, as are responsibilities.
We find several Greek words used to describe functions of Elders.
We find no bishops, archbishops, popes, grand pubas, etc. We also find no Apostolic succession.
Playing the Catholic card?
“However, we are discussing “pope” not being an office of the church. It never appears an as office under any name, including “pope.””
Who is a bishop - an episkopos. The office you left off of your list.
Episkopos is just another Greek word describing one duty of Elders of the Church. Five different words are used to describe the main duties of this office.
“Episkopos is just another Greek word describing one duty of Elders of the Church.”
No. The same root word is used in regard to the replacement of Judas. Thus, the bishop is a successor to an Apostle when most properly understood. Otherwise in the NT the word is used interchangeably with the word presbuteros (elder/priest). Distinctions might have come later - obviously - but that is not out of keeping with the NT.
“Five different words are used to describe the main duties of this office.”
And even so, as I said, in Acts 1 we see the clear link between the office of bishop and Apostle.
You have never studied Greek or Hebrew? If you have, you are rusty, based on your post. The root does word does not equate what happened here with the official church office of Elder.
Beyond the improper use of Greek to justify a position that happened after 100AD, when the Apostles chose a replacement for a traitor Judas, they listing this criteria, which never occurred again - nor can ever occur again...
Acts 121 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
Here is a list of the requirements:1. a Man
2. Someone who had been with the group of Apostles
3. During the physical Life of Christ
4. Specifically, from John the Baptist's baptism of the Savior until the Resurrection
5. And if this were a template, which it is not, since the Apostles were the foundation and not an ongoing office, TWO were chosen
6. Prayers were offered and a request to show who the LORD CHOSE
7. LOTS WERE CAST to reveal the answer.
It should be added that nowhere in Scripture does God command any other Apostles to ever be chosen.
Nowhere in Scripture are there any examples of Apostles being chosen again.
Nowhere in Scripture are there instructions for choosing Apostles.
Scripture only records qualifications and instructions for choosing Elders and Deacons.
PS - ain’t no church office of priest in the Church either.
Or other 'P' words like Protestant or 'S' words like Sola Scriptura.
presbuteros is the Greek word from which we get the word “priest”. Clearly that office existed.
What if cows could fly, would they be easier to milk?
“presbuteros is the Greek word from which we get the word “priest”. Clearly that office existed.”
Well, no, we don’t. There are no “priests” listed in the Apostle Paul’s list of Church offices. It is simply another word used for the duty of an Elder.
There were no sacrifices to offer in the NT Church. That came much later.
” Or other ‘P’ words like Protestant or ‘S’ words like Sola Scriptura. “
No Protestant listed, but then it is Romans who use that word. Not Christians outside of Rome.
Sola Scriptura is never used. nor is Sola Ekklasia.
Fortunately, the inspiration and sufficiency of Inspired Scripture for salvation and maturity of the believer is taught exactly. This is what is meant by the term Sola Scriptura.
Unfortunately, Sola Ekklesia is not taught.
“Well, no, we don’t. There are no “priests” listed in the Apostle Paul’s list of Church offices. It is simply another word used for the duty of an Elder.”
The office of elder is the office of priest. Jesus was High Priest. He shared His priesthood with the Apostles.
“There were no sacrifices to offer in the NT Church.”
Sure there was - Jesus was re-presented in the Eucharistic sacrifice.
“That came much later.”
No. It started on Holy Thursday.
“The office of elder is the office of priest.”
... No it is not. Ever.
“Jesus was High Priest.”
... yes he IS. He entered ONCE into Heaven and made a sacrifice once for all, according to Hebrews.
“He shared His priesthood with the Apostles.”
... No, He never did in Scripture.
“Sure there was - Jesus was re-presented in the Eucharistic sacrifice.
... and yet there was no Eucharistic sacrifice in the NT or in the Church before 100AD.
Christ triumphs + Christ reigns + Christ commands.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.