Posted on 01/12/2014 7:49:32 PM PST by restornu
That was pathetically weak. Multiple scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit as separate from either the Father or the Son and in the male gender. You have been shown those scriptures multiple times. Denying them doesn’t change the facts.
DouglasKC is a member of the United Church of God, which is an offshoot of Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God (WCG).
Walter Martin and others were dealing with WCG's scripture-twisting for a long time...and a while back.
I have the 1981 Cults Reference Bible that adds notes to what "slants" various cults would place upon different verses (in paraphrase form)...and then offer a response...this way you get "both sides" of what the interpretation "spin" is:
For John 14:16, the notes read thus:
"WCG says: Trinitarians refer to the use of the personal pronoun he with the Greek word for Comforter in this verse and in other verses of John 14, 15, and 16 to prove the Holy Spirit is a third person of the Trinity. Actually the personal pronoun is used only because the Greek word is masculine, and thus its pronoun must take a masculine gender. The other New Testament writers use the Greek word for spirit or breath which is grammatically neuter and thus is represented by a neuter pronoun."
"Christian Response: The personal masculine pronoun is used with the neuter noun Ghost (Spirit) in John 14:26. Other verses with this construction are John 15:26 and 16:8 and Eph. 1:14. There is personality ascribed to the Holy Spirit when He is compared to Christ as another Comforter. (See also Acts 13:2; 20:23)." (p. 904)
So not only is the personal masculine pronoun used here, but the Holy Spirit is another Comforter like Jesus Christ.
Acts 13:2 is also referenced there...where "me" and "I" is used of the Holy Spirit there...
Here's the KJV: "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost SAID, Separate ME Barnabus and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them." (Acts 13:2)
On p. 83 of the Cults Reference Bible, Martin lists a dozen "Basic Doctrinal Deviations" from orthodox Christianity.
I'll list a portion of them:
1. The key to biblical prophecy is that during the time of Israel's exile ten of the tribes were 'lost' when they migrated across Europe to finally land in England and later in America. This is known as Anglo-Israelism. Today, Manasseh is England, and the company of nations associated with Ephraim is America. After attining great wealth and power, these tribes will be destroyed by a revived Holy Roman Empire comprised of the ten Common Market nations, headed up politically by Germany and religiously by the Roman Catholic Church. England and America will then be taken off into slavery.
5. Old Testament dietary laws and the Ten Commandments are to be followed if one is to achieve salvation.
6. Salvation is future, not present. It is not an act but a process. Justification is merely the wiping away of past sins but does nothing for the sins of the present; the individual is responsible to keep God's law. This is done by faith, but salvation is an ultimate forgiveness and reward that requires lifelong compliance with God's ritual and moral requirements. Only Jesus has achieved salvation. No one is now sure of his salvation.
8. Being born again has nothing to do with a spiritual renewal in one's life. It has to do with a life as spirit beings into which the children of God eventually are born by means of the resurrection.
9. There is no eternal nature of the soul. Man does not have a soul; he is a soul. The soul ceases to exist at death but is re-created in a future resurrection.
11. The Trinity doctrine is pagan. God is a family comprised right now of Jesus and the Father, but eventually will include all who accept God's way of life--they become God. The Holy Spirit is an active, impersonal force.
Bottom line: If you KNOW much of the above to be false, and if you are talking with someone whose spiritual roots exported this to the world, by all means, value them as a person loved by God...but...why would you give them much theological credence to their claims?
Let me recommend a few resources -- which I will cite below -- re: the Personality of the Holy Spirit.
These are good books to add to your library:
* Doctrine Twisting: How Core Biblical Truths are Distorted by H. Wayne House and Gordon Carle (InterVarsity Press, 2003)
* The Complete Book of Bible Answers: Answering the Tough Questions by Ron Rhodes (Harvest House, 1997)
From Doctrine Twisting:
"The Bible...clearly describes the Holy Spirit as a person. Personal pronouns are always used in reference to the Holy Spirit, never neuter (see Jn. 14:17; 15:26; 16:13-14). The Holy Spirit is NEVER referred to as a thing or as a force of God. The Holy Spirit is called a 'witness' (Acts 5:32), and speech is attributed to him (Acts 8:29; 10:19-20; 11:12; 13:2). Attributes that can be possessed only by a personal being are ascribed to the Holy Spirit. He feels love and grief (Is 63:10; Rom. 15:30; Eph. 4:30), has a mind with which to intercede (Rom. 8:27), possesses knowledge (1 Cor. 2:11), can be lied to (Acts 5:3), can be insulted (Heb. 10:29), can teach (John 14:26), can bear witness (John 15:26), can hear (John 16:13), and can make value judgments (Acts 15:28). The Bible also ascribes personal descriptive titles to the Holy Spirit, such as Helper, Comforter and Counselor (John 14:26)." (pp. 116-117)
"He can be lied to, as in the case of Ananias and Sapphire (Acts 5:3-4). Paul warns us about grieving the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30)...One can lie to and grieve only a person. Neither can one blaspheme an impersonal force." (pp. 118-119)
"The Scriptures clearly teach that the Holy Spirit is a person. He is given to the church as Counselor, taking over the role performed by Jesus on earth. Like the Father and the Son, he acts as only a person can do: he speaks, hears, acts, testifies, glorifies, convinces, guides, teaches, punishes, prompts, commands, forbids, desires, intercedes with groanings too profound for human understanding. Like the Father and the Son, he can be personally insulted, lied to, resisted and grieved by sin. When Jesus speaks of the parakletos (counselor, comforter) he always uses the personal pronoun." (pp. 106-107)
From Rhodes:
"The Holy Spirit has a mind. The Holy Spirit's intellect is seen in 1 Corinthians 2:10 where we are told that 'the Spirit searches all things' (cf. Isaiah 11:2; Ephesians 1:17). The Greek word for SEARCH means 'to thoroughly investigate a matter.' WE are also told in 1 Corinthians 2:1 that the Holy Spirit 'knows' the thoughts of God. How can the Spirit 'know' the thoughts of God if the Spirit does not have a mind? A force does not know things. Thought processes require the presence of a mind." (p. 77)
Continuing: "Romans 8:27 tells us that just as the Holy Spirit knows the things of God, so God the Father knows 'what the mind of the Spirit is' (NASB). The word translated MIND in this verse literally means 'way of thinking, mindset, aim, aspiration, striving.' A mere force--electricity, for example--does not have a way of thinking or a mindset." (p. 77)
Continuing: "The Holy Spirit has emotions. In Ephesians 4:30 we are admonished, 'Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God.' Grief is an emotion and is not something that can be experienced by a force. Grief is something one FEELS. The Holy Spirit feels the emotion of grief when believers sin..." (p. 77)
Continuing: "The Holy Spirit has a will. We are told in 1 Corinthians 12:11 that the Holy Spirit distributes spiritual gifts 'to each one individually just as He wills' (NASB). The phrase HE WILLS translates the Greek word BOULETAI, which refers to 'decisions of the will after previous deliberation.' The Holy Spirit makes a sovereign choice regarding what spiritual gifts each respective Christian receives. A force does not have such a will." (p. 77)
Continuing: "...the Holy Spirit is doing many things in Scripture that only a person can do. For example, the Holy Spirit TEACHES believers (John 14:26), He TESTIFIES (John 15:26), He GUIDES believers (Romans 8:14), He COMMISSIONS people to service (Acts 13:4), He ISSUES COMMANDS to believers (Acts 8:29), He RESTRAINS SIN (2 Thessalonians 2:7), He INTERCEDES (prays) for believers (Romans 8:26), and He SPEAKS to people (John 15:26; 2 Peter 1:21). In view of the evidence above, it is beyond doubt that the Holy Spirit is a person and not a 'force.'" (pp. 77-78)
Amazing, simply amazing.
One of THE absolute worst so-called "translations" of the Bible is the Jehovah's Witnesses New World 'Translation' by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society.
It's provoked many to respond to the way it tortures so many of the Biblical texts.
One such book was a 1982 Presbyterian & Reformed Publishing book by Robert H. Countess called The Jehovah's Witnesses' New Testament.
You see, the JWs have done what the Armstrong cult has done, along with its splinter groups: Depersonalize the Holy Spirit and militate vs. the Trinity.
Since Countess approaches the subject matter from the Greek text, I will simply quote him a bit here:
"Although the noun 'spirit' is of neuter, grammatical gender, there is no justification automatically to register the Holy Spirit as an impersonal influence, no more than to regard the German word for 'girl,' the neuter das Madchen, as indicating a non-feminine, non-masculine entity..."
Picking up a few graphs down: "A critical reader of NWT might have desired an appendix explaining how it can be that this 'invisible active force' does the things ascribed to it in the New Testament. In 1 Corinthians 12:11 it 'wills'; in Mark 13:11 it is seen 'speaking'; in Luke 12:12 and parallel passages it 'will teach'; in John 16:13 it 'will guide' and speak what 'he hears'; in verse 7 it is seen as 'the helper'; in Acts 13:2 it calls missionaries; in 8:29 it gives command to an evangelist; and in Matthew 1:18 it causes conception. That the Holy Spirit is personal may be observed further by Jesus' referring to Him as ἐκεῖνος three times in John 16:7-14. The neuter of this demonstrative is ἐκεῖνο..." (p. 71)
Countess, on p. 72 adds that the Greek word parakletos "literally means 'one called alongside.' It is not abstractly 'the help' or 'the comfort,' but actively and concretely 'the comforter,' and as such can hardly describe an impersonal divine influence."
Also, what's interesting is that DouglasKC earlier on this thread cited Jesus being an Advocate -- referencing 1 John 2:1...
Note that A.H. Strong, in Systematic Theology, Judson Press, p. 323, says: "the name PARAKLETOS, which cannot be translated by 'comfort,' or be taken as the name of any abstract influence. The Comfortor, Instructor, Patron, Guide, Advocate, whom this term brings before us, must be a person. This is evident from its application to Christ in 1 John 2:1 -- 'we have an Advocate (PARAKLETOV) with the Father, Jesus Christ the Righteous."
The Holy Spirit is as much "Paraclete" as Jesus Himself!
Other verses worth noting with Greek nuances:
In Acts 15:28, the KJV reads "It seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us..." ... The Greek word here for "seemed" is dokeo -- which means "to think."
How is an impersonal force to be thoughtfully decisive?
Finally, the Holy Spirit IS the inspiration for Scripture itself! Peter confirms this in 2 Peter 1:21...
Now some here would have us believe that God must have done all of this robotically and mechanically...
No. He used REAL people. And REAL PERSONAL DIVINITY was involved in inspiring them!
In the book I cited a few posts ago (House and Carle, Doctrine Twisting) these co-authors cited Ephesians 4:30 a few times and then they begin to close out a chapter with a chilling warning...
But before I cite them, allow me to quote a verse I brought up much earlier in this thread...Isaiah 63:10:
Douglas, why would you not only militate against the very language of the Scriptures, but also place yourself in such spiritual jeopardy of having the Holy Spirit fight against you?
House and Carle, p. 119:
Keep shining that light!!!!
Indeed, well done with these high quality posts Colofornian!
Explain please where Doug KC blasphemed against the Holy Spirit?
You're arguing with the wrong person. I've worked on two major translations.
“One of THE absolute worst so-called “translations” of the Bible is the Jehovah’s Witnesses New World ‘Translation’ by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society. “
What utter unsupported nonsense! An honest examination of the NWT will show it to be a scholarly work of translation.
I didn't accuse him of that...only of treading upon sacred ground where he might be heading in that direction.
Why?
Thomas Nelson Bible Dictionary, entry for "Blasphemy" (1986/1995, p. 220):
Blasphemy defined as...
"the act of..." [either]
"cursing"
"slandering"
"reviling"
"or showing contempt"
"or lack of reverence for God"
So...parallels in this thread?
Douglas has indeed shown a lack of reverence for the divine Holy Spirit, depersonalizing Him, and reducing Him as less personal than even animals are, when the clear Scriptural evidence is the reverse.
Beyond that, God alone knows his heart; so I don't go there (1 Samuel 16:7).
And, btw, Restornu, blasphemy goes beyond blasphemy vs. the Holy Spirit:
For example...
your post #445:
"BTW the Bible was put together by MEN not the Holy Ghost...Now the content of the Books contain the word of God is only as accurate as the scribes translated them, Even Jesus has trouble in his conversations with the scribes and Pharisees and Sadducees."
Along with DouglasKC's post #424, where he cites a Peter reference to "untaught and unstable men" -- implying these men were behind "translating Scriptures":
"I believe there are errors and bias in the translation of scriptures. I believe that things were added to the original inspired scriptures. And I think it's been going on for a long time." (#424)
In Titus 2:5, the word used for maligning the Word of God is the Greek word blasphemeo.
The KJV, the NASB, and many other versions retain this Greek Word about the need to NOT blaspheme/malign God's Word!
“What utter unsupported nonsense! An honest examination of the NWT will show it to be a scholarly work of translation.”
And all this time I thought you were a Catholic! Turns out you were a Jehovah’s Witness?
It was an objective statement and I’ll let you draw whatever conclusions you will from it since I never discuss myself.
“It was an objective statement”
Only if you’re a Jehovah’s Witness who buys their claims. But, do you even know the QUALIFICATIONS or even the NAMES of the translators?
The New World Translation was produced by the New World Bible Translation Committee, formed in 1947. This committee is said to have comprised unnamed members of multinational background.[20] The committee requested that the Watch Tower Society not publish the names of its members,[21][22] stating that they did not want to “advertise themselves but let all the glory go to the Author of the Scriptures, God,”[23] adding that the translation, “should direct the reader... to... Jehovah God”.[24] The publishers believe that “the particulars of [the New World Bible Translation Committee’s members] university or other educational training are not the important thing” and that “the translation testifies to their qualification”.[25] Former high ranking Watch Tower staff have claimed knowledge of the translators’ identities.[26] Walter Martin identified Nathan H. Knorr, Fredrick W. Franz, Albert D. Schroeder, George Gangas, and Milton Henschel as members of the translation team, writing of them, “The New World Bible translation committee had no known translators with recognized degrees in Greek or Hebrew exegesis or translation... None of these men had any university education except Franz, who left school after two years, never completing even an undergraduate degree. In fact, Frederick W. Franz, then representing the translation committee and later serving as the Watchtower Society’s fourth president, admitted under oath that he could not translate Genesis 2:4 from the Hebrew.” (However, the court transcript indicates that Franz declined to translate text from English back into Hebrew.[27]) Franz had stated that he was familiar with not only Hebrew, but with Greek, Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, German, and French for the purpose of biblical translation.[28]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Translation_of_the_Holy_Scriptures#2013_revision
Dunno about you, but I’d rather not attribute to a bunch of flunkies “scholarly” status.
“and I’ll let you draw whatever conclusions you will from it since I never discuss myself.”
Then I’ll conclude that you are a Jehovah’s Witness, since most normal people aren’t afraid to reveal their religion unless their religion is particularly flaky.
Why do you need relief; Deceived One?
MAny things have been 'explained' to you; but; apparently; you don't get it.
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