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WHY ARE OUR CATHOLIC LAITY SO ILLITERATE WHEN IT COMES TO THE CATHOLIC FAITH
Southern Orders ^ | May 31, 2013 | Fr. Allan J. McDonald

Posted on 05/31/2013 2:44:05 PM PDT by NYer

WHY ARE OUR CATHOLIC LAITY SO ILLITERATE WHEN IT COMES TO THE CATHOLIC FAITH--BLAME THE TEXT BOOKS, BLAME THE TEACHING METHODS AND BLAME THE PARENTS, BUT BLAME THE BISHOPS, PRIESTS AND CATECHISTS TOO, BLAME EVERYONE INCLUDING SATAN, EXCEPT NO ONE TEACHES ABOUT HIM ANYMORE OTHER THAN POPE FRANCIS, DON'T BLAME HIM!

Do our Catholic children and most adults know what these images teach?

All of us know one of the elephants in the room of the Catholic Church. Our religious education programs are not handing on the essence of our Catholic Faith, our parents are befuddled about their role in handing on the faith and the materials we use are vapid or if good do not make an impression on young minds. We are afraid of asking for memorization and thus most don't remember anything they've learned about God and Church other than some niceties and feel good emotions.

I teach each class of our grades 1-6 (we don't have 7th or 8th) each Thursday, rotating classes from week to week. For the last two years I have used Baltimore Catechism #1 as my text book. It is wonderful to use with children and it is so simple yet has so much content. If Catholics, all Catholics, simply studied Baltimore Catechism #1, we would have very knowledgeable Catholics.

These past two years I've used Baltimore Catechism #2 with our adult religious program which we call Coffee and Conversation following our 9:30 AM Sunday Mass, which coincides with our CCD program which we call PREP (Parish Religious Education Program).

This #2 book has more content and is for middle school, but upper elementary school children must have been more capable of more serious content back when this book was formulated and used through the mid 1960's because it is a great book to use with adults and not childish at all. We all use this same book as a supplemental book for the RCIA because it is so clear, nobly simple and chocked full of content!

Yes, there are some adjustments that need to be made to some chapters, but not that many, in light of Vatican II and the new emphasis we have on certain aspects of Church that are not present in the Baltimore Catechism. But these are really minor.

What is more important though is that when the Baltimore Catechism was used through the mid 1960's it was basically the only book that was used for children in elementary and junior high school. It was used across the board in the USA thus uniting all Catholics in learning the same content. There was not, in other words, a cottage industry of competing publishing houses selling new books and different content each year.

The same thing has occurred with liturgical music, a cottage industry of big bucks has developed around the sale of new hymnals, missalettes and new music put on the open market for parishes to purchase. It is a money making scheme.

Why do our bishop allow this to happen in both liturgical music and parish catechesis? The business of selling stuff to parishes and making mega bucks off of it is a scandal that has not be addressed.

In the meantime, our liturgies suffer and become fragmented because every parish uses a different resource for liturgical music and the same is true of religious formation, everyone uses something different of differing quality or no quality at all.

Isn't it time to wake up and move forward with tried and true practices that were tossed out in favor of a consumerist's approach to our faith that has weakened our liturgies, our parishes and our individual Catholics?


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catechism; catholic; catholicsects; ignorantprotestants; papalpromotion; traditionalcatholic
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To: RegulatorCountry

Yes, unfortunately, the Roman church teaches its members that it is infallible and cannot be questioned. The Roman church then becomes the measure of all things in a practical sense.

In some respect the church itself is worshipped, along with Mary and the saints.

Certainly, the magisterium decides WHAT scripture is, WHAT tradition is, WHAT the interpretation is. To say that the RCC is not above scripture or anything else rings a bit hollow when practice is observed.


1,601 posted on 06/10/2013 6:16:32 PM PDT by bkaycee (John 3:16)
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To: RegulatorCountry; Natural Law; MarkBsnr
Do you see what has happened over the course of less than 250 years as a result of allowing learned men to interpret and make pronouncements that violate the intent and the spirit of the written document? Is what we have now even recognizably Constitutional in many instances? No, it’s not

That is the danger in veering from the written word.

That is a good analysis,dear friend.

With that in mind people ought to give major credibility to the early Church fathers who lived closer to the time Christ walked the earth and who saw the closest thing to anything of original Scripture and interpreted Scripture by clear consistent belief in the 7 Sacraments

What many people believe since the reformation is a pluralistic sea of anything like early Christianity.

1,602 posted on 06/10/2013 6:24:00 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatst gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: stfassisi
With that in mind people ought to give major credibility to the early Church fathers who lived closer to the time Christ walked the earth and who saw the closest thing to anything of original Scripture and interpreted Scripture by clear consistent belief in the 7 Sacraments

But early church fathers are only early church fathers.

Opinion pieces by people living closer to the time of Jesus are still opinion pieces. They are NOT Scripture.

1,603 posted on 06/10/2013 6:32:55 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
Praise be to God. See here for more. The issue is consistency with Scripture in attributes, honor and balance regarding its subjects, while Catholicism has gone far beyond and above what is written of Mary, which is relative little but sufficient to honor her without making her the demigoddess who is almost a 4th person of the Trinity.
1,604 posted on 06/10/2013 6:33:13 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: metmom

“”But early church fathers are only early church fathers””

And you are only someone who interprets Scripture 2000 years later ,far removed from anything close to original sources

What makes your beliefs so superior considering this?


1,605 posted on 06/10/2013 6:36:40 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatst gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
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To: bkaycee; Greetings_Puny_Humans; BlueDragon; Alex Murphy
Yes, unfortunately, the Roman church teaches its members that it is infallible and cannot be questioned. The Roman church then becomes the measure of all things in a practical sense. In some respect the church itself is worshipped, along with Mary and the saints. Certainly, the magisterium decides WHAT scripture is, WHAT tradition is, WHAT the interpretation is. To say that the RCC is not above scripture or anything else rings a bit hollow when practice is observed.

For she has "infallibly" declared she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares, including support for her claim.

While RCs attempt to support traditions of men with Scripture as if the weight of Scriptural substantiation from that was determinative of doctrine, and provided certain assurance of truth, this cannot be the case as that would make them as evangelicals.

Rather, the only authoritative interpretation of Scripture, history or tradition which they may invoke for support is that which Rome gives, and thus the RC's real assurance is based on the premise of Rome's assured infallibility, and their goal is to bring you to cease from objectively seeking to ascertain the veracity of her teachings by Scripture and to trust that in the veracity of Rome for assurance.

1,606 posted on 06/10/2013 6:47:14 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Natural Law
I've never had any success describibg a sunset to the color blind.

I can't seeb why not...

1,607 posted on 06/10/2013 6:54:27 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: metmom
"Catholics are committed to Rome/man and their teachings."

No, my dear Nestorius. Because Jesus = God, then Mary = Theotokos.

Peace be to you

1,608 posted on 06/10/2013 6:54:32 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a book, He left us a Church.)
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To: Elsie
"I can't seeb why not..."

Head cold.....

1,609 posted on 06/10/2013 6:55:21 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a book, He left us a Church.)
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To: editor-surveyor
Wait’ll you guys get older and try to decipher what you think you are HEARING with a vastly diminished range of frequencies.
1,610 posted on 06/10/2013 6:56:07 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: RegulatorCountry
"I’ll concede your point regarding individual interpretation if you can find your way to realizing that your magesterium is comprised of individuals."

The Magisterium speaks with one voice, that of the Paraclete.

1,611 posted on 06/10/2013 6:57:22 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a book, He left us a Church.)
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Comment #1,612 Removed by Moderator

To: MarkBsnr

It seems to be always circular with your ‘answers’.


1,613 posted on 06/10/2013 7:00:44 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MarkBsnr
Paul is direct and very convincing.

Evidently NOT!




 
Is Peter the 'rock'?
 


NIV Matthew 4:18-19
 18.  As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
 19.  "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."
 
NIV Matthew 8:14
  When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.
 
NIV Matthew 10:1-2
 1.  He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil  spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
 2.  These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;
 
NIV Matthew 14:28-31
 28.  "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
 29.  "Come," he said.   Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
 30.  But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
 31.  Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"
 
NIV Matthew 15:13-16
 13.  He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
 14.  Leave them; they are blind guides.  If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
 15.  Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
 16.  "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
 

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'
BEFORE the following verses came along.....


NIV Matthew 16:13-18
 13.  When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
 14.  They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
 15.  "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
 16.  Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."
 17.  Jesus replied, "
Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
 18.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.
 19.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
   and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
 
NIV Luke 6:48
   He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.
 
NIV Romans 9:33
  As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 
 
 
NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
 4.  As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
 5.  you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
 6.  For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 7.  Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
 8.  and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.


But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

 

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
 24.  But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
 25.  because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty,  who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.
 
NIV Numbers 20:8
   "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
  He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
   Jeshurun  grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
  You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
 
NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
 30.  How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
 31.  For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.
 
NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
  "There is no one holy  like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
 2.  He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
 3.  my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn  of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
 
NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
  "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!
 
NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
 3.  The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
 4.  he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'
 
NIV Psalms 18:2
  The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn  of my salvation, my stronghold.
 
NIV Psalms 18:31
   For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?
 
NIV Psalms 18:46
  The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
 
NIV Psalms 19:14
   May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
 
NIV Psalms 28:1
   To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.
 
NIV Psalms 31:2-3
 2.  Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
 3.  Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.
 
NIV Psalms 42:9
   I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"
 
NIV Psalms 62:2
   He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.
 
NIV Psalms 62:6
   He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.
 
NIV Psalms 62:7
   My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.
 
NIV Psalms 71:3
   Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.
 
NIV Psalms 78:35
   They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.
 
NIV Psalms 89:26
   He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'
 
NIV Psalms 92:14-15
 14.  They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
 15.  proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."
 
NIV Psalms 95:1
   Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
 
NIV Psalms 144:1
   Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
 
NIV Isaiah 17:10
   You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.
 
NIV Isaiah 26:4
   Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.
 
NIV Isaiah 30:29
 And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.
 
NIV Isaiah 44:8
   Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." 
 
NIV Habakkuk 1:12
   O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

.....No other rock.............
 
And now you know the Biblical position!


1,614 posted on 06/10/2013 7:01:52 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: daniel1212

Yep, that’s why Loyola can say.

“That we may be altogether of the same mind and in conformity with the Church herself, if she shall have defined anything to be black which to our eyes appears to be white, we ought in like manner to pronounce it to be black.”

VS.

Acts 17:11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.


1,615 posted on 06/10/2013 7:02:46 PM PDT by bkaycee (John 3:16)
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To: MarkBsnr
Required to follow the directives of Christ.

Which are:

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.


1,616 posted on 06/10/2013 7:03:47 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Natural Law
What makes you think that God's Word is limited to the written Word?

Likewise...

What makes you think that the RCC's tradition is equal to God's Word?

1,617 posted on 06/10/2013 7:04:56 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: stfassisi
Rome is akin to the "elites" who autocratically interpret the Constitution contrary to the authors intent, which Rome does to Scripture in many notable ways in diverging from the NT church.

With that in mind people ought to give major credibility to the early Church fathers who lived closer to the time Christ walked the earth and who saw the closest thing to anything of original Scripture and interpreted Scripture by clear consistent belief in the 7 Sacraments

RC teaching is that she judges the CFs more than they judge her, as often some disagree with Rome, and the tradition-based EOs invoke them in support of their many differences with her.

From what i have read you neither have most of what it is estimated all the CFs wrote, (the most complete written compilation of the "Father's" works, the Oxford/Edinburgh "Ante-Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers," was compiled by Anglicans and fills 38 volumes, yet it is held that this work contains only a small selection of the writings of the Church Fathers), nor an infallible list of all the CFs (one at least is held to be a women), and these were not inspired writers of Scripture.

But we do agree that all Scripture is wholly inspired of God, though Roman scholarship is often quite liberal in its interpretation of Scripture, while divisions and disagreements (besides what is effectively allowed) also exist under the Roman means of unity (sola ecclesia).

1,618 posted on 06/10/2013 7:05:21 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Natural Law
Please put together a coherent and cogent though and try again or seek medical help (not intended to be a snarky response).

At least you didn't call them a Publican.

1,619 posted on 06/10/2013 7:06:06 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: bkaycee
Yes, unfortunately, the Roman church teaches its members that it is infallible and cannot be questioned.

So THAT's where SLC got the idea!

1,620 posted on 06/10/2013 7:07:21 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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