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Archbishop Josť H. Gomez on Immigration Reform: The Debate Begins
Catholic Online ^ | 4/28/2013 | Archbishop Josť H. Gomez

Posted on 04/28/2013 11:41:29 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

As chairman of the U.S. Bishops Migration Committee, I've been working with Cardinal Timothy Dolan, the U.S. Bishops' president, and many of my brother bishops to study the new comprehensive immigration reform legislation that has been introduced in the U.S. Senate.

[snip]

Because we are an immigrant Church, this debate over immigration is a debate about the future of the Church and our Catholic people. The Mexicans and other Latin Americans at the center of this debate - the millions whose fate is being decided by our politicians - are mostly fellow Catholics.

Earlier this week, the U.S. bishops held a press conference on the reform legislation, which is known as the Border Security, Economic Opportunity and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013.

This bill has many of the elements the bishops are looking for. The job now is to improve this legislation so that all can come out of the shadows and are able to pursue the American Dream.

We are concerned about the border-security "triggers" in the bill. These are certain conditions that must be met before undocumented immigrants could even apply for permanent residency or citizenship.

My brother bishops and I are deeply concerned about the security and sovereignty of our country. The Church has always taught that governments have the duty to defend and secure their national borders.

I lived for many years in Texas, which has our nation's longest border with Mexico, so I know these issues first hand. I agree with the Senators who drafted this legislation - we absolutely need to secure our borders to stem the flow of drugs and crime and to reduce risks of foreign terrorists entering our country.

But I also think we need to make sure that these "triggers" don't become "moving targets."

(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: amnesty; bordersecurity; catholic; gangof8; religion
As chairman of the U.S. Bishops Migration Committee, I've been working with Cardinal Timothy Dolan, the U.S. Bishops' president, and many of my brother bishops to study the new comprehensive immigration reform legislation that has been introduced in the U.S. Senate....

....Because we are an immigrant Church, this debate over immigration is a debate about the future of the Church and our Catholic people. The Mexicans and other Latin Americans at the center of this debate - the millions whose fate is being decided by our politicians - are mostly fellow Catholics.

Earlier this week, the U.S. bishops held a press conference on the reform legislation, which is known as the Border Security, Economic Opportunity and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013. This bill has many of the elements the bishops are looking for. The job now is to improve this legislation so that all can come out of the shadows and are able to pursue the American Dream.

....We are concerned about the border-security "triggers" in the bill.

1 posted on 04/28/2013 11:41:29 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

Deport this frijolero back to Mexico, and hopefully the Kool aid drinkers on FR who support him should follow suit.


2 posted on 04/28/2013 11:48:32 AM PDT by Clemenza ("History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil governm)
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To: Alex Murphy

“we absolutely need to secure our borders to stem the flow of drugs and crime and to reduce risks of foreign terrorists entering our country.

But I also think we need to make sure that these “triggers” don’t become “moving targets.””

Well, Bishop Gomez, the gang of 8 & the pres don’t really care what you think, ‘cause they are meeting with the Muslim leaders and they like the idea that the border will never be secured. Just like we conservatives, you better watch yourselves, you can be replaced, too!

[snip]
“Thanks to Norquist’s sponsorship, Khan has also been able to infiltrate other Republican circles, including the American Conservative Union. Meanwhile, he’s teamed up with Imam Mohamed Magid, Obama’s Muslim outreach partner, to do interfaith outreach with evangelical Christian leaders in the South....”

“Through the Islamic Institute, Norquist appears to have developed close relationships with a number of Muslim leaders. When I recently spoke to the Muslim Public Affairs Council’s Salam Al-Marayati, the man who fingered Israel as a potential sponsor of the World Trade Center attacks, he recited Norquist’s phone number from memory.”

Obama’s radical Muslim advisors are Grover Norquists friends.

[snip]On March 8, ISNA President Mohamed Magid joined 10 other religious leaders in a 90-minute conversation with President Obama about immigration reform.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/3011955/posts?page=4#4

Grover is guest speak at C.A.I.R. and teams up with them on various events, usually concerning immigration.


3 posted on 04/28/2013 12:00:54 PM PDT by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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To: Alex Murphy

Will the last one leaving Mexico turn out the lights?


4 posted on 04/28/2013 12:02:11 PM PDT by Sybeck1 (What has the GOP done today to gain your support in 2014?)
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To: Sybeck1

There is a debate?

When the other side isn’t allowed to express an opinion in the mass media?


5 posted on 04/28/2013 12:03:17 PM PDT by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: Alex Murphy

Maybe we should we deport the Catholic Church?

Amnesty is national suicide


6 posted on 04/28/2013 12:04:00 PM PDT by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: Alex Murphy
Statement: "Archbishop José H. Gomez on Immigration Reform: The Debate Begins"

Response: This statement illustrates why America is falling; "debate," "discussion," "different points of view," "dialogue, and "profound opinion by experts!." In the meantime Mexicans are flooding across the border-(ACTING NOT TALKING)in such large numbers that they have virtually taken over one state-California amd maybe others.

7 posted on 04/28/2013 12:13:43 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: Alex Murphy

“Our government has spent billions in recent years to build fences and increase monitoring and enforcement along our borders.”

Oh really?

Are there pictures of these fences?

There is no hint of “enforcement”, without which “monitoring” is meaningless.


8 posted on 04/28/2013 12:25:45 PM PDT by G Larry (Darkness Hates the Light)
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To: Clemenza
"Deport this frijolero back to Mexico, and hopefully the Kool aid drinkers on FR who support him should follow suit."

As the old joke goes, a conservationist is someone who already own a vacation home in the mountains. An evil developer is someone who wants to. That joke characterizes the immigration debate too. Those of us whose ancestors came to America for a better life effectively own the vacation home in the mountains. The Mexicans are those who want to.

We are a nation if immigrants that, for the last 160 years, does not have a good track record of welcoming immigrants. The Irish, Italians, Poles, Jews, Slavs, Japanese, Chinese, and Mexicans have all been seen as a threat to the status quo. Today immigration is looked at strictly as a political chess piece by both parties but ignores the very human needs of the immigrants and their contributions to our communities and culture. I can guarantee from personal experience that I would much rather live next to a conservative, hardworking Mexican family of dubious immigration status than a home grown third generation welfare recipient.

Let us not forget that Jesus, Joseph and Mary were immigrants, illegally fleeing their king when they fled to Egypt.

9 posted on 04/28/2013 12:30:52 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave is a book, He left us a Church.)
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To: Alex Murphy

The good bishop wouldn’t be taking this position if 95% of illegals were from Scandinavia, or were non-Catholics.

I didn’t so much leave the Catholic Church as the Catholic Church left me.


10 posted on 04/28/2013 12:38:14 PM PDT by ought-six ( Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule.)
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To: Alex Murphy
this debate over immigration is a debate about the future of the Church and our Catholic people

Then, your excellency Abp Gomez, please don't give scandal. If I (a natural born US citizen) were to confess that I am violating numerous local, state, and federal laws on an ongoing basis (with no intent to stop) in order to sustain my preferred lifestyle, would you give me absolution? Especially when the laws I'm breaking are not only just laws, but some of the most generous laws in the world?

No wonder so many Catholics don't bother with reconciliation any more. Breaking the law doesn't seem to be such a big deal any more.

11 posted on 04/28/2013 12:40:16 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot
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To: Natural Law

Oh, stuff it. The Irish, Italians, Poles, Slavs, etc. you cite came here legally, respected our laws and traditions, happily and eagerly learned English and wanted their children raised as Americans, and did not maintain their allegiance to the “old country” like Mexicans and Central Americans do.


12 posted on 04/28/2013 12:42:19 PM PDT by ought-six ( Multiculturalism is national suicide, and political correctness is the cyanide capsule.)
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To: Natural Law
Let us not forget that Jesus, Joseph and Mary were immigrants, illegally fleeing their king when they fled to Egypt.

This is very true. I wouldn't support abuse of illegals. That said, the Holy Family fled at the command of God. And they eventually returned home. Something I have wondered about but for which I have no answer, is whether they violated the laws of Egypt during their temporary stay there.

Your points are well taken but I still think the bishops give scandal on this one. Peace be with you.

13 posted on 04/28/2013 12:47:06 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot
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To: Alex Murphy

There was a thread last about whether Catholics would be allowed to marry royals in merry old England, and the ‘mother church’ chauvinists were insisting that The Church: the “true religion”, required that children of such a union be raised as Catholics.

Forget about requiring its grown members to abhor infanticide, to respect the G-d given right of self defense or to render unto Caesar his right to secure national borders ... the bell, book and candle must be reserved only for those who fail to raise their children in the (clearing throat)

faith.

To further roil the water, I believe the only Nazi excommunicated in WWII was Goebbels. And that was because he married a Lutheran.


14 posted on 04/28/2013 12:51:11 PM PDT by tumblindice
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To: Natural Law

Look at most of the welfare receipients in California: they are Gomez’s People.


15 posted on 04/28/2013 1:10:17 PM PDT by Clemenza ("History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil governm)
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To: Clemenza
"Look at most of the welfare receipients in California: they are Gomez’s People."

There is nothing disproportional or surprising about California's welfare demographics. Nearly 40% of the population of California is Hispanic, (approximately the same as the white population) and most of those at the lowest socioeconomic tiers of society. The water and environmental policies of the democrats have devastated California's agriculture industries which has had the greatest effects on the Hispanic communities of the central valley.

As I said earlier, I would rather live in a community of conservative, family oriented, hard working Mexicans regardless of immigration status, than I would in a community of white multi-generational welfare recipients.

Peace be with you

16 posted on 04/28/2013 1:41:46 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave is a book, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law

Jesus, Mary and Joseph were refugees running for the baby Jesus’life. They left Egypt when their refugee status was no longer necessary. The current illegal aliens flooding this country are primarily economic opportunist with no moral right to do what they are doing.

We are a nation of immigrants, as are all nations. But our ancestors came legally according to the laws of the time. They came to give to this country, not to take as so many illegal aliens do.


17 posted on 04/28/2013 1:49:32 PM PDT by amihow
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To: Natural Law

I am living in the middle of lots of Mexicans. There are many about whom I would say I would rather live next to than a welfare legal American resident.

That said, the people who have come here the last decade are, in general, not that type of Mexican. That Mexican family you like is either Mexico’s “greatest generation” or their progeny.

The most are just like those welfare recipients who elicit your disdain.

No country can accept too many people too fast especially illegally. Time to stop it.


18 posted on 04/28/2013 1:55:17 PM PDT by amihow
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To: Alex Murphy

Protesters Question Clergyman’s Loyalty
At Archbishop Jose Gomez Residence

Dozens of protesters have shown up at Archbishop of Los Angelus Jose Gomez residence many carrying American flags and bearing signs questioning his loyalty to the US not Mexico along with many signs demanding equal rights for American citizens in Mexico.

The protest was apparently triggered by the clerics decision to push forward with his predecessors decision the disgraced Cardinal Mahoney with offering amnesty thus citizenship to Mexicans crossing the border illegally while thousands of Americans in Mexico suffer under 2nd class citizenship unable to own property and suffer indignitys let alone participate in Mexican elections while living there in Mexico.

A spokeswoman for the group, Harriet Hildegarden insisted her group consists of Catholics loyal to the church. “We will be protesting at other locations where prominent clergy of the church have sided with the Obama regime”Hildy” claims the church is supporting the democrat party which denied God at their convention and declared what she claims is war on the Catholics but would collude with i t on many issues including “amnesty” .

When asked if she may be denied communion for her activities her reply was “Well it’s been known that when that happens quicker when clerics get personally attacked than when some politican challanges the church on the grounds of faith and morals” .

from
http://www.thusmat.co/natldesksatire.htm


19 posted on 04/28/2013 1:59:14 PM PDT by mosesdapoet (Serious contribution pause..Please continue onto meaningless venting no one reads.)
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To: mosesdapoet

link correction http://www.theusmat.com/natldesksatire.htm


20 posted on 04/28/2013 2:01:12 PM PDT by mosesdapoet (Serious contribution pause..Please continue onto meaningless venting no one reads.)
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To: Natural Law

“As the old joke goes, a conservationist is someone who already own a vacation home in the mountains. An evil developer is someone who wants to. That joke characterizes the immigration debate too. Those of us whose ancestors came to America for a better life effectively own the vacation home in the mountains. The Mexicans are those who want to......Let us not forget that Jesus, Joseph and Mary were immigrants, illegally fleeing their king when they fled to Egypt. “

Really...you’re going to excuse this ILLEGAL incursion on ‘bibical principals’? Pathetic!

What about that commandment...”You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”

There are DOZENS of biblical quotes against illegal immigration and admonishing aliens to follow the law.

[snip]The whole concept of lawful versus unlawful entry into our nation – also the foundation of Arizona’s new SB-1070 — is based on principles of property rights that flow from the 10 Commandments. Those who violate our immigration laws by jumping the fence are stealing rights of citizenship (to live and work in America) and, in essence, coveting and stealing their neighbors’ property.

http://www.lenmunsil.com/2010/08/christian_ethics_do_not_suppor.php

BTW...I owned a home in the mountains...got run out by armed illegal alien drug cartels growing dope on your public lands!

“We are a nation if immigrants that, for the last 160 years, does not have a good track record of welcoming immigrants.”

More nonsense. The United States allows more legal immigrants than the rest of the world COMBINED! Many of whom have been very difficult to deal with...like the IRISH and the Italian crime syndicates!


21 posted on 04/28/2013 2:05:14 PM PDT by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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To: AuntB
"More nonsense."

"I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another." - John 13:34

How much did Jesus love us?

22 posted on 04/28/2013 2:18:04 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave is a book, He left us a Church.)
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To: AuntB

How many of Norquist’s conservatives are really just *conservatism inc*. Opportunism is what is tearing this nation apart and there are plenty of opportunists in the conservative movement. Let Norquist drift off to sea, have nothing to do with him. There are other fish in the sea, as they say.


23 posted on 04/28/2013 2:24:34 PM PDT by cradle of freedom (Long live the Republic !)
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To: Alex Murphy

Please, please, somebody who can get to Abp. Gomez: Tell him that we need to stop the flood of PRO-ABORTION voters into our country.


24 posted on 04/28/2013 2:26:36 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a female's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: cradle of freedom

“Let Norquist drift off to sea, have nothing to do with him. There are other fish in the sea, as they say.”

How do we convince all the republican politicians he has a hold over to do that?

We can’t ‘vote’ him out, you know.


25 posted on 04/28/2013 2:29:39 PM PDT by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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To: Natural Law

Sell your phony religiosity to someone else.


26 posted on 04/28/2013 2:30:17 PM PDT by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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To: amihow
But our ancestors came legally according to the laws of the time. They came to give to this country, not to take as so many illegal aliens do.

I think this is an important point. Do we really expect people who break the law to suddenly become law abiding citizens when amnesty is passed? I live in the midst of illegals and some welfare recipients. I've had to pay thousands of dollars to repair property damage caused by illegals next door. I don't recall ever having to repair/replace property when citizens on public assistance lived next door. Call me biased and prejudiced if you like, but I don't see how rewarding this type of behavior will result in anything except more crime.

Also, have you heard any illegals expressing gratitude for ANYTHING? Is there ever a thanks for the leniency this country has shown? For the generosity of the US taxpayer in subsidizing their children with free food, a free education, low cost or free housing, free health care, etc? If all these freebies are unjust and discriminatory for noncitizens, just how many more benefits will it take to satisfy them as citizens?!

27 posted on 04/28/2013 2:33:18 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot
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To: Natural Law

Millions of immigrants have entered this country and have done well. Don’t keep dredging up old history from more than a century ago. Those immigrants that we have often seen arriving at Ellis Island at the turn of the 20th century went on to make a life for themselves. Their children got an education paid for by the tax payers which gave them an opportunity to succeed in ways that their parents could not have realized back in the old country. Look at the area all around New York City, that whole area around New York and New Jersey was populated by those immigrants and their children. They have done alright for themselves.


28 posted on 04/28/2013 2:37:07 PM PDT by cradle of freedom (Long live the Republic !)
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To: AuntB
Sell your phony religiosity to someone else.

With all due respect, how do you know his sentiments are are phony? He may be filled with more Christ-centered love than the both of us combined!

Where I disagree with him is the matter of confirming another in their sins. I don't see how it's anything else to reward someone for ongoing, long term violations of multiple laws. I don't see why the govt (or the church) gives them special status. If I can't get absolution for repeated lawbreaking, why the illegal alien? If the feds don't cut me slack for breaking the law, why do it for illegals? I don't like it when the bishops or the govt excuses some from following the rules the rest of us are supposed to follow.

29 posted on 04/28/2013 2:41:26 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: Natural Law

Would you like to live in a community with Latino gang members spray painting their gang signs all over your garage door?

If this Mexican culture is so religious and family oriented, why are there thousands of Mexican gang members? My ethnic group is also immigrant but there are very few people involved in crime. Our neighborhoods are safe, people buy houses and improve them, they keep their streets clean and they do not drive without licenses, they do not carry multiple identities and they do not teach their children to disrespect America. We do not bite the hand that feeds us.


31 posted on 04/28/2013 2:47:30 PM PDT by cradle of freedom (Long live the Republic !)
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To: cradle of freedom
"Don’t keep dredging up old history from more than a century ago."

Being judgmental is easy for those of us not punished with being born poor in Mexico. If we were we too would seek ways to improve our lot and that of our families even if it meant sneaking into the US.

32 posted on 04/28/2013 2:54:08 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave is a book, He left us a Church.)
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To: AuntB

Hopefully by making our feelings known to conservative organizations that still do business with him. We are going through a transisition now where we are finding out that many of our leaders have been wolves in sheep clothing. I guess we just have to keep influencing our conservative organizations to turn away from him.

Do you know the names of conservative organizations that have left CPAC?


33 posted on 04/28/2013 2:56:45 PM PDT by cradle of freedom (Long live the Republic !)
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To: AuntB
"Sell your phony religiosity to someone else."

Perhaps you did not realize that this is the Religion Forum.

34 posted on 04/28/2013 2:58:30 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave is a book, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law

Are you saying I’m being judgmental?


35 posted on 04/28/2013 2:58:35 PM PDT by cradle of freedom (Long live the Republic !)
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To: AuntB
Drop it.

With all due respect, please don't tell me what to do :) I disagree with name calling (Mt 5:22) or questioning someone's commitment to Christ (I assume that's why you put ' ' around the word Christian)

Natural Law asked a legitimate question: How did Christ love? My answer is that he loved fully but he did NOT confirm others in sinful lifestyles nor did he confiscate from one group to give to a more preferred group. He specifically said to sin no more. And he submitted to the laws of his nation. Therefore I don't see the bishops' confirmation of some in law-breaking and entitlement-seeking as necessarily Christlike.

36 posted on 04/28/2013 3:00:51 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot
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To: Natural Law

There are about 100million people in Mexico, about 500 million in Latin America and 7 billion in the whole world. Move over you’re going to have a lot of company.


37 posted on 04/28/2013 3:03:23 PM PDT by cradle of freedom (Long live the Republic !)
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To: PeevedPatriot
"My answer is that he loved fully but he did NOT confirm others in sinful lifestyles nor did he confiscate from one group to give to a more preferred group."

My point is that it is not completely justified to blame only the Mexicans. We have created an incredible welfare salt-lick and in doing so created the incentive and reward for illegal immigration.

Peace be with you

38 posted on 04/28/2013 3:12:40 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave is a book, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law

Many Mexican workers take jobs working in the building trades. These have always been good paying blue collar jobs. Now many American dads cannot find work in the building trades because they have been undercut by illegal labor. Why do you think that tens of thousands of Californians have left their state?

American dads also love their children and they want them to have a decent life. They also want to keep their self respect by earning a living rather than going on welfare. They want their children to have self respect and learn the work ethic from seeing their dads work everyday. They do not want their children growing up in the culture of welfare.

You hear many touching stories about Mexican parents who who want to give their children a better life but you do not hear stories of American parents who are out of work and struggling to keep their families together. Why is this? Is it because there are no American families who are in poverty? Could it be that this is because the illegal aliens have a huge industry of people helping them out, LaRaza, LULAC, MALDEF etc., etc. These organizations are being funded by the Ford Foundation, Rockefeller Foundation and many other foundations and corporate sponsors. If you want to find out who some of their donnors are-there is a really long, long list—go onto www.nclr.org and see for yourself. Keep in mind that we the taxpayers are also giving money to their organizations. Workers whose jobs are being replaced by illegal workers are actually paying taxes to lobby politicians against their own best interests.

You really have to learn more about this issue.


39 posted on 04/28/2013 3:19:43 PM PDT by cradle of freedom (Long live the Republic !)
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To: Natural Law
We have created an incredible welfare salt-lick and in doing so created the incentive and reward for illegal immigration.

Oh, yes, I'm in 100% agreement with you there!

On the subject of love though, one of its defining characteristics is that it's freely given. It can't be coerced or compelled. IMHO taxes to subsidize public benefits aren't reflective of love because of their compulsory nature (unless you're a government official, then payment seems to be optional). For me then, this isn't about the way Jesus loved, rather it's about serving the needs of the less fortunate without surrendering sovereignty of the nation we cherish. I don't think we need amnesty and reinforcement of criminal behavior to love as Jesus did or to serve the less fortunate in ways that please Him.

Peace be with you too :)

40 posted on 04/28/2013 3:36:25 PM PDT by PeevedPatriot
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To: PeevedPatriot

To retain these people is to ruin this country. We need to defend ourselves. Call congress. No amnesty. No retention. We can fix this pronlem with mandstory punitive everify and compassionste heRings for hard cases.


41 posted on 04/28/2013 4:38:28 PM PDT by amihow
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To: Clemenza

Are you saying that God does not love these people?

What about previous immigrantions? Were they welcomed?

Italians need not apply.
Catholics need not apply.
Irish need not apply.
Germans need not apply.
Swedes need not apply.
Poles need not apply.

All these people were and ARE God’s people.


42 posted on 04/28/2013 4:41:38 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Clemenza
Archbishop became a naturalized citizen. What do you have against him?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%c3%a9_Horacio_G%c3%b3mez#Early_life_and_education.
 
[8] He became a U.S. citizen in 1995.[3]

He did it the right way! May he urge others to do likewise.

43 posted on 04/28/2013 4:44:21 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: GeronL

**Maybe we should we deport the Catholic Church?**

Why?

It is the One and Only church that has stood stauchly against abortion, euthanasia, same-sex marriage, embronic stem-cell research, contraception — and my list could continue.

Has your church remained steadfast AGAIST all these things?


44 posted on 04/28/2013 4:46:41 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ought-six

The Catholic Church never leaves you. When you are a baptized Catholics and do not attend church — it is your decision to do this.

The Baptismal mark is and always will be on your soul. You will answer for it someday if you continue to make the choice to turn away.


45 posted on 04/28/2013 4:48:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ought-six


46 posted on 04/28/2013 4:49:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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