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What should come next? (The Catholic response to shrinking congregations)
The Catholic Thing ^ | April 7, 2013 | Bevil Bramwell, OMI

Posted on 04/08/2013 4:48:13 AM PDT by NYer

Fifty years ago the Vatican Council said about the laity: “Whoever they are, they are called upon, as living members, to expend all their energy for the growth of the Church and its continuous sanctification, since this very energy is a gift of the Creator and a blessing of the Redeemer.” Lay people were not presented as depending on the clergy for initiatives. Laity aren’t supposed to wait for a request from the episcopal palace. They have a task that is theirs from Baptism.

Done anything lately to make the Church grow?

What exactly is this task? “The laity are called in a special way to make the Church present and operative in those places and circumstances where only through them can it become the salt of the earth.” These places and circumstances involve schools, business, politics, medicine, science, international affairs, wars, the list is endless.

But in the American Church, many Catholics are waiting for the clergy when they ought to be doing things themselves. By Baptism and Confirmation, “every layman, in virtue of the very gifts bestowed upon him, is at the same time a witness and a living instrument of the mission of the Church itself ‘according to the measure of Christ's bestowal. . .’”

Lay people know a lot about the secular world. They typically do not bring to their work all the philosophical and theological analysis that academics and some clergy do. But lay people do have the raw data and lived experience many theologians lack. They are constantly exposed to and engaged with what is going on in the world.

The official Church has revelation through tradition and scripture and the work of the magisterium. The trouble often is that the people with ecclesiastical learning and the people with lay experience do not often pool what they know and definitely not on the subjects that really concern laypeople.

Here’s the thing: forget the historical question why this situation developed – that would fill volumes. But now, right now, as the American Church seems to be fading into national irrelevance, why don’t the laity seek out the necessary theological insight into the many fields of human life? Starting at the parish level: why can’t we have courses that inform people about what the Church really teaches? What are we spending money on that could be better spent on the Christian analysis of everyday life?

            Christ Preaching in the Temple by Guercino (Giovanni Francesco Barbieri), c. 1625

If “father” won’t organize it, hire people yourselves – reliable experts in the field – to do the teaching that is needed. Enough clergy and informed laity know that doctor X or father Y are not orthodox, but doctor Z would be good. He or she is authentically Catholic and learned and capable of communicating the content of the Faith to lay people who want to hear it.

To be sure, the much feared question about orthodoxy has to be posed. It is not just a question of whether people like professor so and so. The Church has far higher standards of truth and one of its attractions for many people – though this is little noticed – is that it is a truth-telling institution.

At the diocesan level, too: why aren’t dioceses training every single layperson? Maybe lay people should simply organize and get the job done, collect money, hire the teachers and the lecture halls. Let’s get Catholicism to where it is meant to be – which is as the operational knowledge in faith and morals for lay life. Lay people organize much better than many clergy. Get a few converts in the mix as well. Their passion is real because they appreciate what they have received.

Of course, one must not hire partisan propagandists for the Democrats or the Republicans, or people who merely pass on the fantasies of the popular culture about love and marriage and business. They are usually hostile to the culture of life and to promoting the humanity that Christ died for. There has to be some caution, too, about hiring people who teach what they think is in the teachings of the Council. There is a long history of Americans making stuff up, calling it Catholic, and strangely enough finding crowds of people to go along with it. Diocesan clergy do it. Religious do it. Lay people do it.

Fortunately, there are now enough knowledgeable men and women of faith who can teach and who genuinely understand Catholicism in all of its richness. Catholicism is too wonderful to be the possession of a privileged few, those who have done the study and who live the orthodox faith to the full.

A last word from the Council: “Christ loves the Church as His bride, having become the model of a man loving his wife as his body; the Church, indeed, is subject to its Head. ‘Because in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,’ He fills the Church, which is His body and His fullness, with His divine gifts so that it may expand and reach all the fullness of God.”

Isn’t promoting this fullness worth a very substantial effort?

TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture
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To: Jerrybob

I am catholic, I am not a pedophile. My husband is catholic he is not a pedophile. Neither are our priests at our parish. The best way to evangelize as Catholics is to follow the example of Jesus.

Jesus developed relationships with people. He talked to all people and offered love, understanding and forgiveness. If we develop meaningful friendships with the people we meet in our daily travels then a discussion of our faith will meaningfully develop over time out of natural curiosity. Helping people discover Christ isn’t a fifteen minute conversation, it is an ongoing part of all our relationships. It is living by example.

Get off the sofa, get out of the house, go meet people and for goodness sake turn off your gadgets ( the world won’t end really) and let the Holy Spirit be your guide.

21 posted on 04/08/2013 6:26:12 AM PDT by longfellowsmuse (last of the living nomads)
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To: Mad Dawg

I will recount until I did that when I was an Episcopal priest I had clear and convincing evidence that a (married with a child) colleague was committing sexual abuse. I told my bishop who quite clearly did want to deal with it since the colleague had moved to another diocese.

...not quite clear...did the bishop want to deal with it or not? The context is confusing...

...btw, like your tagline ‘in Thee, Lord, have I hoped...I shall not be confounded for eternity...’

22 posted on 04/08/2013 6:31:01 AM PDT by IrishBrigade
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To: Excellence

All mankind are our brothers and sisters, they may be apostate but God does not stop loving them, He longs for them to come to Him and we are to go and make disciples of all nations and that includes all religions.

Jesus died for sinners, ALL sinners. If you have the grace to believe in Him, then thank God because he has given you that grace.

Our priest tells a story of a huge gathering of religions in India. He was in seminary and wasn’t able to go but watched on TV. People shoulder to shoulder and the leaders of each religion spoke starting with the one with the most adherents. After each finished their talks the crowd went wild clapping, yelling and they’d get the crowd calmed down for the next one.

The Catholic went last and told about Jesus, His divinity, His humanity, His love and when he finished there was no cheering, no clapping, no unbridled exuberance, the seminarians watching on TV couldn’t understand it...until the cameras finally went to the crowds, they were on their knees, crying, praying.

The aftermath was that thousands were baptized a year later.

23 posted on 04/08/2013 6:38:53 AM PDT by tiki
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To: Gen.Blather; NYer
Catholicism could use some real marketing help.

I think it's happening. I also think the laity, upon whom the marketing effort will rest, need to be very purposeful and disciplined about their sacramental and prayer life.

These are, regrettably, interesting times.

24 posted on 04/08/2013 6:46:20 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (In te, Domine, speravi: non confundar in aeternum.)
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To: NYer

At my parish in Rhode Island, we are flourishing and would be called a youthful parish. But the age spread is pretty even from the very old to the very young.

We remain quite orthodox, upholding much tradition with respect and love, but we are not extremists on either side of the pendulum. The Holy Spirit has been active for as many years as I can remember in our parish. This is attested to only because our parishioners respond to God’s grace and allow it to grow.

Two movements actually worked tirelessly to foster the faith. The Cursillo movement and the Charismatic Renewal. We have a strong youth ministry headed up by my pastor and some very committed adults and teenagers.

I know some parishes are languishing and their numbers are low, but that is not the case at my parish. I can only praise the Lord for this great blessing.

Deacon Francis

25 posted on 04/08/2013 7:02:41 AM PDT by ThomasMore (Islam is the Whore of Babylon!)
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To: tiki
The aftermath was that thousands were baptized a year later.

At which point they become our brothers and sisters.

We preach the message. If it is accepted, we baptize. If it is rejected, we shake the dust off of our sandals and move on. Not my words, by the way. Stating that the Lord God and Allah are both the god of Abraham is wrong. There is no equivalency, and trying to make the equivalency puts another, false, god before or equal to the Lord God.

26 posted on 04/08/2013 7:06:33 AM PDT by Excellence (9/11 was an act of faith.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I was quite serious. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons go out and rap on doors and I’ve often wonderd how other groups would respond if asked to do so.

27 posted on 04/08/2013 7:10:57 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: ThomasMore
At my parish in Rhode Island, we are flourishing and would be called a youthful parish. But the age spread is pretty even from the very old to the very young.

We are only several doors away from the last surviving Latin Rite parish in the City of Watervliet NY (when the RC bishop closed 5 of their 6 parishes, the catholics migrated en masse to a local Evangelical Church). Yesterday an oriental family showed up for mass. Afterwards, as I usually do with anyone new at this church, I thanked them for joining us and invited them for refreshments downstairs in our Hall. In our conversation, I learned they moved here from San Francisco 3 days ago!!! They specifically looked for a Maronite Church and enjoyed the sense of community and fellowship from others in our congregation. At another table, I spoke with a RC gentleman who used to attend mass at the Latin Rite parish. He explained the congregation was made up of "social security recipients". Our community, like yours, is comprised of a broad range from infant to age 97. It is alive and vibrant.

28 posted on 04/08/2013 7:18:29 AM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: IrishBrigade
don’t know why you’re including me in this post, along with Billybob or whatever his name was...I responded to him in like manner as you did...

Just wanted to reinforce your excellent response.

29 posted on 04/08/2013 7:19:44 AM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: count-your-change
A call to action but what action? Are lay persons going to proselyte, maybe stand on street corners preaching the “message” or go knocking on doors?

The one comment I see repeatedly on many threads is that posters are often invited to attend someone's worship service and they wonder why catholics never invite them to attend their church. This same comment is often made by guests of Marcus Grodi on The Journey Home. That might be a good starting point. Invite someone to join you for church. Let God take care of the rest.

30 posted on 04/08/2013 7:23:40 AM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: count-your-change
I was quite serious.


I’ve often wonderd how other groups would respond if asked to do so.

I know of several Catholic pastors who have had no trouble recruiting a sufficient corps of Door Knockers and Jesus Talkers. More pastors should try it. Christians should not leave the field to the Mormons and JWs.

31 posted on 04/08/2013 7:24:02 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: John O

“(If I remember correctly Rembert Weakland, Bishop of Milwaukee was a big liberal. Does anyone have data on the church there during and after his reign? I thought that his replacemnet was a conservative and that weakland was kind of forced out)”

Yes, Weakland was forced out. Listecki (spelling?) is a much better bishop. I do not have specific data on things like vocations, however, but I would be shocked if they are not up over the last 5 or so years. Here’s an article from 2010 that shows things might be turning around there:

32 posted on 04/08/2013 7:25:45 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: IrishBrigade; NYer
It sounds like your parish is disintegrating. Painful.

Mine is doing a bit better, and I can't analyze why: could be a good, capable pastor (leadership absolutely counts) plus it's a newish diocese, erected in 1989, in an area of Catholic population growth by migration (Eastern TN filling up with Rust Belt Yankees) so there's stll some of that new-guy gumption.

I'm on the parish RCIA team, and We! Teach! Catholicism! We haven't got it all together, but are committed to doing it better every year.

Do not give up on your parish. Virtually every saint-biography says that the saint was "in struggle with a corrupt, slack church" --- no matter what the country, the continent or the century.

I agree with the premise of the posted article. Evangelism? Catechesis? We, the laity, need to do it, and keep on doing it.

33 posted on 04/08/2013 7:30:19 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (May the Lord bless you and keep you, may He turn to you His countenance, and give you peace.)
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To: IrishBrigade

Sorry you had a bad experience with RCIA. Actually, our group was/is quite conservative. We had one session on NFP and both the leader and two of the other team members were recently in seminary but decided to marry and have now amongst themselves, something like 10 children. We did a lot on the Mass and the Communion of Saints. There was one old couple who were not happy I think because they had been happy with the sort of RCIA that you describe.

34 posted on 04/08/2013 7:34:34 AM PDT by Mercat (I'm loving this Pope)
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To: Mad Dawg; IrishBrigade; Jerrybob
I will second that. When I was an Episcopalian, I knew quite a number of (at that time) "closeted" or semi-closeted homosexual clergy. Some of them were far too chummy with pre-teen and teenage boys.

Nobody cared. Not the bishop (who was pretty well known to be at minimum a sympathizer), not the MSM. I mean, when your cathedral is posted on CraigsList as a "hookup" location . . . . But absolutely nobody cared.

You have to understand that homosexual "chickenhawkers" are very clever at insinuating themselves into places where they can gain access to boys. Liberals, whether they be bishops or school principals or scout leaders, are either too naive or too blinded by PC to catch on right away. If you look, you'll see a correlation between very liberal Catholic bishops and the number of offenders in their dioceses.

The Catholic Church has now "caught on" and has extremely strict rules that are vigorously enforced. As other organizations "catch on" they will either do the same . . . or not.

But the media will continue to attack the Church for what happened 10, 20 or 50 years ago, because as far as they are concerned, the goal is attacking the Catholic Church as the last large organized bastion of opposition to the liberal agenda of abortion, contraception, free sex, and homosexuality. The idea that they care about the victims is negated by their complete lack of attention to victims in any other context.

35 posted on 04/08/2013 7:58:05 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: NYer

At my local Parish, they could clear all of the liberal bumper stickers from the parking lot and stop talking about social justice.

36 posted on 04/08/2013 8:11:10 AM PDT by Half Vast Conspiracy (Based on a letter from an 8 year old…school is now illegal...'cuz it’s yuckey and dumb'.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Following Jesus example every Christian should be a door knocker evangelist I would say.

37 posted on 04/08/2013 8:21:01 AM PDT by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: NYer


38 posted on 04/08/2013 8:23:42 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Jerrybob

Why? The seminaries have been cleaned up. We are getting straight and orthodox believing bishops. At my church we had six people baptized and eight come into full Communion with the Church at the Easter Vigil.

Aren’t you aware of what Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI put in place visiting commissions to clean up the seminaries? It’s even happening with the nuns and their convents as I write.

Catholic seminaries are bulging and bursting with straight young men who want to serve the Lord. Each year’s group of ordinands (those to be ordained) gets larger and larger.

When my priest was ordained — there were only two priests ordained that year. For the last several years our archdiocese has had eight or nine priests ordained. Even a couple older men from the Anglican Church have become Catholic priests.

Nothing to get the willies about at all. Do you want to see all the links that prove my point?

39 posted on 04/08/2013 8:31:38 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: tiki
thank you you answered that better than I could

I was in Africa some years ago and had dinner with missionaries from Kenya who talked about having 5,000 people come to Sunday services in 3 sessions at their small church- some families walking overnight from their villages to get there

In Mozambique I met Methodist men who walked 3 days through rebel infested bush (savage mindless murderous rebels) to get to a Methodist church conference

They were protestants but I believe Catholicism will make great strides in Africa and the 3rd world even as the West secularizes or falls into the gray water religions of the churches of “Our Lord of Wass Happening Now”

40 posted on 04/08/2013 8:34:15 AM PDT by silverleaf (Age Takes a Toll: Please Have Exact Change)
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