Posted on 01/31/2013 5:05:06 PM PST by Colofornian
(He said with as much self-righteous condescension as he could muster)
It's actually probably more than 50,000...given the story's Utah-based guestimate of $99,500.
I went with $50,000 as that was the mention by "Jon" in the link I provided. (I also added the word "say" $50,000 to show it wasn't an accurate figure)
Your quote from the other link included this graph: The big problem with this thread is that the leaders in question don't actually get their "stipend" from TITHING. They get it from the Churches business operations.
As the Lindblum article clearly shows, if a Mission President is getting $99,500 in benefits -- which is another way to get that $ tax-free -- and if they don't have to tithe the required 10% on that...then (a) they are getting in effect almost $110,000 worth of benefits because no tithing is required on that; and (b) When you're talking about an entity -- the Mormon church -- that literally owns almost 1% of Florida real estate...where most of their laborers actually pay them to work there...it really doesn't matter what area of the Mormon church is the source of the funding.
'Tis all fungible.
I find the inconsistent apprehension of the New Testament by you to be beyond astounding.
I suppose that when/if you get to heaven, you'll lecture the apostle Paul on his choice of words vs. the Galatians, eh?
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified (Galatians 3:1)
Answer us honestly: Did Paul cross your contrived "lashing out" borderline, or not?
Or about Jesus?
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” (John 8:46-47)
You need to even look @ the broader context of the last part of John 8 -- where Jesus references the Pharisees as "children of the devil."
I don't think somebody can be more "harsh" in speaking the truth than to say to a group of religious people:
(a) "You don't belong to God"
(b) And the reason you don't belong to God is because you don't hear the truth He speaks ("hears what God says")
(c) And you reject the truth I'm telling you right now ("you do not believe me...why don't you believe me?")
(d) And on top of that (the broader context of John 8), you are of your father, the devil, whose native language is lies!
You see what you utterly fail to realize is that both Paul and Jesus dealt differently with the religious legalists (including the Pharisees) than others.
Paul referenced the legalistic Galatians twice as "foolish" and once as "bewitched" a gentle exhortation?
Vitriolic?
More Jesus on the legalists:
Matt. 15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Matt. 16:12: ...guard against the yeast...against the TEACHING of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Luke 11:52: ... you have taken away the key to knowledge.
John 8:44,47: You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies…The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
Matthew 23:2-4: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
Mark 7:6-8,13: He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” …13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
Matthew 23:2-7, 13-34 : 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
You've either deliberately avoided reading these kind of passages re: your lack of comprehensive apprehension of Scripture, or you somehow think in your Biblical ignorance that citing a passage about chopping off somebody's ear equates to verbally "lashing out"...an absolutely stunning misapplication when all of the above passages were available to draw upon.
Sure. Create the thread and ping me.
It would be an interesting conversation and good exercise of the mind.
I won’t attack your religion but, I do ask “what is your religion?”.
I refer you back to the end of the original article posted on which our discussion is based: ...this particular mission president—who, remember, is considered a “volunteer”—is getting compensation for at least $110,000! Not bad for someone who is NOT supposedly getting a wage!”
When someone announces to me that they are a "volunteer" who receives ZERO wages for the church work they do...but then tell me that not only expense reimbursements, but their entire family budget (100%) is taken care of for their...
* food,
* clothing,
* household supplies,
* family activities,
* dry cleaning,
* personal long-distance calls to family,
* and modest gifts (for example, Christmas, birthdays, or anniversary).”
* support for children serving full-time missions;
* dance lessons (and the like) for elementary and secondary school-aged children
* school tuition, fees and books;
* undergraduate college tuition;
* a gardener; a housekeeper;
* internet
* utilities;
* babysitters;
* transportation expenses including the use of a car and all fuel and maintenance expenses...
Then their announcement as a "volunteer" no longer passes the straight face test.
It could be 1 cent or 1 billion dollars, in relation to your argument it's meaningless. It's a reimbursement.
ALL: MeOnTheBeach's comments on this topic also no longer passes the straight face test, when he claims 100% of the list above is mere "reimbursements" that ANY church leader of any OTHER denomination would EVER claim...IF THAT is true for so-called "professional" churchworkers, then it's absolutely ludicrous for MeOntheBeach to conclude that this is somehow "typical" for the average or even above-average church "volunteer" worker...
And since you are so good at asking questions of others, how about trying and answering one. What exactly is your faith, what Church do you call home...
And since you are so good at asking questions of others, how about trying and answering one. What exactly is your faith, what Church do you call home...
When you would like to have a factual good conversation about mormonism let me know.
But I'll play along.
So what translation do we use in your opinion?
And you didn't answer the second question in my post...
And which one is right.
And of course there is the third question...
Are we doing this a bit at a time.
Seen that before...
(No, not employed by a "paid ministry")
Other than that, the rest of your post assumes & presumes much without making any case for that.
Go ahead...show us which post specifically is hateful, mocking, ridiculing, belittling? Other than that, your post sounds like you'd be a parent who would discipline a child of yours -- and never tell 'em why (specifically)...other than they "offended" you as a parent in some way.
And the Apostles continued it: Acts 5:37-38 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
Say what? Are you this off-base -- to the point that your basic reading skills are now exported to the world for all to see?
The source for the statement you cited in Acts 5:37-38 isn't the apostles at all! The source was Gamaliel -- a teacher of the law!
So are you telling us that as Christians are we going to take our cultural cues from teachers of the law and Pharisees...???? Really?
Another FREEPER a little over a year ago tried a similar thing in citing Acts 5:35 ... not bothering to mention that he chose a teacher of the law to try to lecture me on...
Tell us all, Meonthebeach...how do you interpret passages from the apostle Paul like Titus 1:9 and 2 Cor. 10:4-5? Here Paul was discussing qualifications of an elder with Titus: 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and REFUTE THOSE WHO OPPOSE IT. (Titus 1:9)
If you don't want anybody to live out Titus 1:9, ya better start advocating that everybody take some scissors to that verse and snip it out!
2 Cor. 10:4-5: 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. ???
What do you do with that passage MeontheBeach? Do you rewrite v. 4-5 to say: "The weapons we fight with are no weapons at all...we pacify strongholds. We tolerate arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God..."
And then we have Jesus' half-brother, Jude: 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly CONTENDcontend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.. (Jude 3, KJV)
What does that word "contend" mean Meonthebeach? Think of any athletic competition dear to your heart...now think of a coach you know in that sport...now offer to go in and give a "pep talk" to them...let's say if it was football or basketball...your "pep talk" could consist of something along the lines of: "Now, gentlemen. I know you're competitive. But I don't want you to contend for whatever goals or prizes the coaches have discussed with you. Instead, just keep away from the opposition...leave them alone...don't cover or guard them; don't keep an eye on them; if their game plan is of a humanistic coach, hey, it will come to nothing on its own...believe you me."
You know, Meonthebeach, it's one thing to not be exposed to these kind of New Testament passages...that's understandable...it's another to hit the lecture circuit and export your assessment of the NT missing such passages...all with a wagging finger and scolding tone to boot.
We have no right to publicly attack anyone. Jesus commanded: Matthew 15:14 14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Once again, you commit the error of wresting verses out of context. The context of Matthew 15:14 is that the disciples were commenting to Jesus that Jesus' previous statement had offended the Pharisees!!!! Exactly the opposite of what you try to pass off here for Biblical knowledge!!!
10 Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.” 12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
Just wow, MeontheBeach!!!
Oh, and for further evidence re: your "publicly attack" comment, does that mean that Paul shouldn't have disputing as he did in public???
And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God. 9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. (Acts 19:8-9, KJV)
THX 1138
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