Skip to comments.Jesus Christ as Elder Brother [Mitt's ancestor originated Lds idea treating Jesus as mere brother]
Posted on 07/18/2012 5:07:41 AM PDT by Colofornian
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints often refer to Jesus Christ as their elder brother. This expression of endearment appears in sermons, lessons, and publications...The title is used enough that some might think that elder brother is one of the many titles attributed to Christ in the scriptures, but nowhere do the scriptures use this expression in reference to Jesus. Nor can the idea that Jesus is our elder brother be ascribed with certitude to the teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith...
Beginning in 1844 we find the first instances in which the Church leaders use the phrase elder brother...to refer to Christ. These six recordings were all recorded contemporaneously. June 22, 1844, Orson Pratt...
The concept that Christ is the elder brother...does not appear to have been actually articulated and recorded until 1871 by Orson Pratt:
Now, who is Jesus? He is only our brother, but happens to be the firstborn...how is he the firstborn? Because he is the eldest--the first one born of the whole family of spirits and therefore is our elder brother.
...It is apparently Orson Pratt, then, who should be credited with the first attempt to...use the title elder brother as applied to Jesus. It was Orson Pratt who first recorded the concept that Jesus is "our Brother" shortly before the death of Joseph Smith, and Orson Pratt who first articulated that Jesus is all humankind's elder brother in the spirit...
Section 93, an 1833 revelation to Joseph Smith, allows implicitly the idea of brotherhood with Jesus: since human spirits are eternal, these spirits were with God in the beginning just as Jesus was.
To those not familiar with the plan of salvation, hearing Jesus Christ called an elder brother might be misunderstood as a diminution of Christ's high status...
(Excerpt) Read more at byustudies.byu.edu ...
#2 Lds "apostle" Orson Pratt is Mitt Romney's great-great grandfather [Relationships table in Wikipedia Pratt family entry]
#3 From the article: Re this Jesus reference as "Elder Brother," ...nowhere do the scriptures use this expression in reference to Jesus.
(IOW, even the "scriptures" the Mormons added to the Bible -- the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine & Covenants -- NONE of these were the source of this reference!)
#4 From the article: Beginning in 1844 we find the first instances in which the Church leaders use the phrase elder brother...to refer to Christ. These six recordings were all recorded contemporaneously. June 22, 1844, Orson Pratt...The concept that Christ is the elder brother...does not appear to have been actually articulated and recorded until 1871 by Orson Pratt:
The article quotes a second-hand source for Pratt's June 22, 1844 usage, as well as his first written recorded usage in 1871 -- the '71 excerpt: Now, who is Jesus? He is only our brother, but happens to be the firstborn...how is he the firstborn? Because he is the eldest--the first one born of the whole family of spirits and therefore is our elder brother.
From the article: ...It is apparently Orson Pratt, then, who should be credited with the first attempt to...use the title elder brother as applied to Jesus. It was Orson Pratt who first recorded the concept that Jesus is "our Brother" shortly before the death of Joseph Smith, and Orson Pratt who first articulated that Jesus is all humankind's elder brother in the spirit...
#6 The author of this BYU-published study seemed to realize the way non-Mormons would comprehend this unique Lds teaching, saying: The article concedes To those not familiar with the plan of salvation, hearing Jesus Christ called an elder brother might be misunderstood as a diminution of Christ's high status...
But let's face it, if the Mormon pre-existent narrative was historically true --
--if you, I, Lucifer, and Jesus were all siblings to each other, "born" to a Mom-God and a Dad-God near Kolob...
...and Jesus was the first of the "litter" and Lucifer the second of the "litter"...
...then before the Mormon story of how both Jesus and Lucifer presented their "plans of salvation" to Dad-God, there wasn't any significant difference substance-wise between the Son of God, Lucifer, or you and me! The lone distinction was supposedly mere spiritual birth order--The Mormon Jesus supposedly having been birth first in some "pre-existent world!"
Of course, what this does then is to greatly reduce the unique status of the Son of God from eternity past, something Mormonistic theology loves to do! IOW, Jesus wasn't so unique from eternity history past: Lucifer was "spirit-born" just like Jesus! And so were the rest of us, says Mitt Romney's ancestor and says Mormonism!
[NOTE: Mormonism further reduces the uniqueness of Jesus Christ's deity by claiming that ALL of us are "gods-in-embryo" -- and each have the potential to become full-grown-up gods. (You only have to be baptized Mormon; become a member in good standing with a temple recommend; obey all their laws and covenants; etc.)]
Yes, the Mormons teach that. Yes, the Mormons had their feathers ruffled by that exposition! They acted as if it wasn't taught by its leaders. (Goes to show you that either some were ignorant of their own teachings; or, they had a temporary problem of placing public relations over image)
Per the official Lds magazine Ensign: On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to someespecially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers
But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifers older brother.
Secondary source: Is Jesus Christ the Spirit Brother of Satan?
Then...go back to late January 2010. Rexburg Idaho. Home of BYU-Idaho. An Lds apostle, M. Russell Ballard, gives an unscripted fireside "convo" with Mormon students. See: Ballard speaks on Mormons in the media from the Rexburg Standard Journal, which covers the talk.
Ballard let the "cat out of the bag" there as well: From the Rexburg article: "You remember Mr. (Mike) Huckabee (who was also vying to be the Republican candidate for president), who among other things said that Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil were brothers?" Ballard asked students. "Remember that? It went all over the media. "Well they are!" Ballard exclaimed to a laughing student body.
Ah, yes. When Mormons accused Huckabee of lying about this -- or worse. They were all offended. Get them behind closed doors, and they laugh about the reality of having Mormon worldviews pegged in the public square.
So, here, we have an Lds general authority conceding that -- to quote him "Well they are!" in reference to the issue of whether they cite "Jesus and the devil are brothers."
Now in case someone views that this information needs to be suppressed...not let it become aired out...or they think that we are overriding realities in our assessments of Mormonism, Elder Ballard concedes at this fireside chatm adding: "But they (the media and nonmembers) don't understand that, because they don't have the (LDS gospel) restoration. They don't understand the spiritual relationship that ... we are all sons and daughters of God, and that Lucifer was one of those and (that) he chose to use his agency in an unrighteous way."
Let's read what some other Mormons have had to say on this subject:
* An LDS "Seventy" named Milton R. Hunter wrote: "The appointment of Jesus to be Saviour of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God. He was called Lucifer, Son of the Morning ....this spirit brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Saviour of Mankind." MILTON R. HUNTER (First Council of 70) The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15, 1958
* Brigham Young said: Who will redeem the earth, who will go forth and make the sacrifice for the earth and all things it contains? The Eldest Son said: Here am I; and then he added, Send me. But the second one, which was Lucifer, Son of the Morning, said, Lord, here am I, send me, I will redeem every son and daughter of Adam and Eve that lives on the earth, or that ever goes on the earth. (Journal of Discourses, pp. 53-54)
* In 1844, LDS author and hymn-writer W.W. Phelps wrote: "And again, we exclaim, O Mormonism! No wonder that Lucifer, son of the morning, the next heir to Jesus Christ, our eldest brother, should fight so hard against his brethren; he lost the glory, the honor, power, and dominion of a God and the knowledge, spirit, authority and keys of the priesthood of the son of God!"
* In 1949 this LDS Conference Report features LDS apostle Joseph F. Merrill, who says that Lucifer "is a spirit brother of ours and of our Lord Jesus Christ..." Here's the exact quote:
"Now there is another personality of which I desire to speak, ... that person is Satan, the Devil. But according to our understanding and teaching, Satan is a person with a spirit body, in form like that of all other men. He is a spirit brother of ours and of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is our Elder Brother in the spirit world. The earth was in course of development for the abode of man in mortality. A Redeemer was to be sent down and make it possible for the Father's children to return to him." (LDS Conference Report, April 1949, p. 27)
* LDS Apostle John A. Widtsoe taught that Jesus is not only the brother of Jesus, but his "elder brother." Exact quote:
"The story of Lucifer is the most terrible example of such apostasy. ... He pitted his own plan and will against the purposes of God. He strove to gain the birthright of his Elder Brother, Jesus the Christ." (Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 209)
The bottom-line of all of this, is that, per Mormonism, not only is the Mormon "Jesus" our "elder brother," but so is the Mormon Satan. Ask your fellow Lds neighbors and co-workers: Is Satan your elder brother. I've asked Lds missionaries; and they've had to concede they believe that!
Let’s put the criminal charlatan playing President in the limelight, shall we?
It Wasn’t Mitt Romney Who:
Apologized for this great nation.
Bowed in submission to the third world dictators.
Wrote his autobiography without a life.
Threw your money at failing fantasies.
Studied under Communists.
Insulted American surgeons, the world’s best.
Prohibited for oil in America.
Condemned, verbally, the rich he was in partnership with (Goldman Sachs, etc.).
Lied about a transparent administration.
Stole GM from its stockholders.
Appointed a tax cheat as secretary of the treasury.
Created death panels.
Put Cloward-Piven into practice.
Supplied Mexican drug gangs with arms.
Set a record for Boeing 747 mileage by a president.
Played 100 golf games his first three years in office on your tax money.
Used a second jumbo jet for his wife. (Muslims fly separately)
Blamed everything wrong on his predecessor.
Appointed unqualified Supreme Court justices.
Lied about Obamacare (PPACCA).
Insulted and threatened the Supreme Court publicly.
Threatened Congress and anyone who disagreed with him.
Refused to take responsibility for anything, ever.
Posed as an authentic American black person.
Hid behind his race.
Listened to sermons for twenty years and never heard one.
Voted as Illinois Senator to kill live, already born, babies.
Attacked Boeing, pampered and funded unions with billion$.
“Stimulated” wealthy Wall Street banks and unions; (your tax money in action)
Campaigned for re-election 3.5 years on public funds.
Took God out of Thanksgiving.
Cut down our defense forces (START treaty).
Said he wasn’t (ha!) an “ideologue.
Got us into some more wars.
Presided over the doubling of fuel prices.
Promised to bankrupt any new coal-fired generating plants
Inhibited the development of American coal, oil, uranium and timber resources.
Supported the Muslim Brotherhood.
Created many unconstitutional “czars”.
Left out ‘Creator’ from the Declaration of Independence.
Denigrated the United States, its history and it’s founders.
Attacked Rush Limbaugh whenever he remembered him.
Did his utmost to divide Americans.
Used the Gulf oil spill to advance his agenda.
Defended and promoted Islam while neglecting Christianity.
Lied about his birth, his records and practically everything else.
Promised your money to Mexican invaders.
Instituted de-facto amnesty to the invaders.
Who first used the phrase “pull the plug on Grandma.”
Funded slumlords Valerie Jarrett and Tony Rezko.
Got his wife a $316,000 a year nothing job.
Was nominated by illegal contributions and voter fraud.
Was elected the same way.
Targeted American citizens as terrorists without a trial.
Moved census control to the White House.
Lived a king’s life, while asking us to sacrifice.
Cancelled 77 oil field development contracts.
Bypassed Congressional reviews of appointees.
Misplaced 17,000 overseas military votes.
Allowed voter intimidation by Black Panthers for Barack Obama’s election.
Dictatorially set carbon emission standards (Congress’ job)
Bribery: Cornhusker Kickback & Louisiana Purchase so as to pass PPACCA
Punished Republican car dealers.
Lied about us keeping our doctors and healthcare companies.
Used taxpayers’ money to fund Democrat propaganda and campaign junkets.
Gave $26 billion of food stamp money to teachers’ unions.
Avoided press conferences like the plague.
Switched our allies with our enemies.
Gave Interpol sovereignty over U.S. law enforcement.
Allowed the FCC try to control the internet.
Wanted the U.S. to submit to U.N. laws (Law Of The Sea, gun control, etc.).
Robbed the middle class and gave it to the ruling class - a Communist habit.
Politically exploited environmentalism - another item from the Communist Manifest
Was our first Marxist President.
Except that this actually presents more problems for the Mormon narrative -- not less! How so?
Well, I recall an article from the Lds church owned Deseret News, where the specially appointed columnist dealing with issues within the Media commented: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints likewise takes no definitive view of when the embryo or fetus acquires a soul... [Source: LDS beliefs in Focus
I said then: Let me get this straight: Lds think man has been...
(1) as eternal as its god that intelligences self-exist from eternity past (LDS Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33).
(2) Then somehow these intelligences, who were beginningless, had beginnings as spirit babies of a god & goddess in some pre-existence.
(3) Then the spirit baby fully matured in the pre-existence.
(4) Then it came to pass that this spirit baby passed down an earthly birth canal. This time to a second set of parents (humans on earth).
(5) Oh. But the LDS general authorities, according to their own complex belief system, conclude that it takes no definitive view of when... this intelligence-baby spirit-fully matured spirit-now-embryo" has acquired a soul.
Oh. Just Oh.
(If these entities "birthed" in heaven have no soul, what are they?)
I would add...if these "human spirits were eternal" -- and already existed BEFORE being "spirit born" to a Mom-God near Kolob, why did they need yet another beginning point? (They contradict)
Now, how do Mormons define "spirit?" If you look under the "Spirit" entry in LDS church-published Bible Dictionary, 1979 (p. 776) -- in back of Holy Bible, you'll find this entry:
"That is, ALL forms of living things--man, beast and vegetation--existed as individual spirits, before any form of life existed upon the earth. The spirit is in the likeness of the physical body, as demonstrated in Gen. 2:5; 1 Ne. 11:11; Ether 3:15-16; D&C 77:2; 129; Moses 3:4-7. Furthermore, all spirit is matter,but is more refined and pure than mortal element (D&C 131:7)."
So. If you take the infinite regression teaching of the Mormon church -- infinitely regressing, we ALL have supposedly "existed" in some form -- [again, see @ Doctrine & Covenant 93:29,33 above...this teaches WE are as eternal (past) as God/Jesus, etc. -- & that spirits & intelligences & elements ALWAYS existed!!!
...and couple it with this above eternal regression teaching...that vegetation & beasts were co-existent alongside us as fellow "spirits" once upon a time...and that we all have ALWAYS existed...
Sometimes esoteric macabre teachings that you think are so FAR out there...are actually mainstream Mormonism!
For more on D&C 93:29,33 and the so-called "Mormon pre-existence" and "Kolob," you can see recent threads:
* PRE-EXISTENCE? Reason 22 [Another planetary pre-existence exist as Lds believe? Ex-Lds says 'no']
* Mormon Science and Space Doctrines [Kolobian cosmology]
* Save Kolob: Church News Says Book of Abraham Not Central to the Restored Gospel
Who converted you?
And B.Obamas intimidate ancestors believed that Jesus did not die on the cross but that Judas did (or good chance as it is a common belief in islam) so we now have 2 equally dislikeable postions vis a vie classical Christian beliefs, so now to look at other points that we can agree or disagree with. I have no great disagreement with the church of j.smith and that of mohammad so on the rest of the issues M.Romney is better than B.Obama at lest to me.
edit’’I have great DISAGREEMENT
If freedom of religion exists, it must exist for the Romney family as well.
I’ll take the mormon over the moron any day.
(So do Satanists; so do Scientologists)...
L. Ron Hubbard could have easily substituted Kolob for Venus in his religion.
Since L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology founder) taught:
...when a person dies or, in Scientology terms, when a thetan abandons its physical body they go to a "landing station" on the planet Venus, where the thetan is re-implanted and told lies about its past life and its next life. The Venusians take the thetan, "capsule" it, and send it back to Earth to be dumped into the ocean off the coast of California. Source: Thetan (Wikipedia)
I guess then, if a Scientologist runs for POTUS in 2016, if he were to pursue a space program that commenced finding that alleged "landing station" on the planet Venus, it supposedly wouldn't have ANY relevance to a POTUS role because that's "religion" -- and we keep "religion" separate from Venus landing stations and Kolobian launching pads, eh?
Seems to me that, per the Mormon myth narrative, when when an earthling is becoming "encapsuled" they leave from a "launching station" on the planet Kolob, where the Mormon spirit is implanted inside a human body, and once born with a Mormon family, the Mormon is told lies about its past life and its next life. The Mormon gods take the Mormon, "capsule" it in that body, and send it to Earth to be dumped at age 8 into the Mormon baptismal founts off of many international coasts.
Are you now suddenly claiming that Mormonism is to be teflon-proof re: ANY critiques?
You seem a wee bit inconsistent on this Mom4melody. I mean, there's been literally THOUSANDS of religious crits of Obama -- many right on the $. His ties to Rev. Jeremiah Wright. What Wright taught and preached on.
Obama catering to Islam.
Some FREEPERs have even claimed Obama IS a Muslim.
Strange...somehow...that on ALL of those threads these past 5 years...I don't recall seeing a comment from you saying: If freedom of religion exists, it must exist for the Obama family as well.
Is it because you're a religious hypocrite who is two-faced on this? Religious freedom for thee (you & Romney), but not for the Obama family?
Does your "freedom of religion" idea here -- re: interpreting that it apparently shouldn't be critiqued -- extend to jihadist Islam? Are we not to critique it under your guise of "freedom of religion?"
Me? I say Obama and Romney can be critiqued re: religion? You? If you are consistent in applying that narrow personally-interpreted standard, apparently not!
Old English Christmas Carol
Jesus our brother, kind and good
Was humbly born in a stable rude
And the friendly beasts around Him stood
Jesus our brother, kind and good.
"I," said the donkey, shaggy and brown,
"I carried His mother up hill and down;
I carried her safely to Bethlehem town."
"I," said the donkey, shaggy and brown.
"I," said the cow, all white and red
"I gave Him my manger for a bed;
I gave Him my hay to pillow His head."
"I," said the cow, all white and red.
"I," said the sheep with curly horn,
"I gave Him my wool for His blanket warm;
He wore my coat on Christmas morn."
"I," said the sheep with curly horn.
"I," said the dove from the rafters high,
"Cooed Him to sleep that He should not cry;
We cooed Him to sleep, my mate and I."
"I," said the dove from the rafters high.
"I," said the camel, yellow and black,
"Over the desert, upon my back,
I brought Him a gift in the Wise Men's pack."
"I," said the camel, yellow and black.
Thus every beast by some good spell
In the stable dark was glad to tell
Of the gift he gave Emmanuel,
The gift he gave Emmanuel.
Thank you Oprah.
Maybe OTHERS might want to try it!
Here's where to start:
Here is MORMONism's own creed:
Articles of Faith
The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535541
- We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
- We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
- We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
- We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
- We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
- We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
- We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
- We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
- We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
- We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
- We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
- We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
- We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of PaulWe believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
That’s why I pray every day for Romney’s salvation! But he’s still a million times more qualified to lead this country than BHO is. Let’s not mix up what is Caesar’s and what is God’s!
Maybe OTHERS might want to try it!
Ya dig a little deeper and say, WOW! Who WOULDn't want to be a MORMON after learning THIS!!!
The Doctrine and Covenants
16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto themYe shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depthsthen shall it be written in the Lambs gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.
22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.
Maybe OTHERS might want to try it!
And to get to the REALLY good stuff in MORMONism; all you have to do is to be able to answer these few questions correctly:
Temple Recommend Questions
1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
5 Do you live the law of chastity?
6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
10 Are you a full-tithe payer?
11 Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?
12 Do you have financial or other obligations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:
Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?
15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?
Wrong, Colo. Sorry, this is one area where the Mormons got it at least partly right.
Romans 8:29 says that Jesus is "firstborn among many brethren". The "many brethren" is us, the Church, therefore Jesus is indeed precisely our elder brother. We are Sons of God as well, by adoption through grace, while he is *the* Son of God by nature. (cf 1 Jn 3) Obviously if he is the "firstborn," and we are the "many brethren," then he is our eldest brother.
That's orthodox (and Orthodox) Christianity.
Well, I'll affirm your motion...
I'm sure the site host would agree...
The only question then becomes YOU!!!?
It took only nano seconds to see that THE very last time you posted a new FR thread on Obama was almost 1,000 days ago -- Nov. 15, 2009:
IF you truly wanted to keep Obama in the limelight -- then instead of charging in here and preaching it to me -- why don't your own fingers on your keyboard obey your charge?
Why are you hypocritically accusing me of somehow failing to keep the thread highlight on Obama, when your keyboard fingers have been pretty silent -- at least on thread production -- for almost 1,000 days now!
Seems to me like you've got a great basis for a vanity thread post there. (Why don't do you just post it ... vs. pointing fingers at me???)
I am no Mormon. I have a different faith. And that is what it is: FAITH. Religion, by its very nature, is a faith-based thing. Unless a religion calls for denial or destruction of our Constitution and laws or a candidate says that he will govern based solely upon his religious beleifs, I come down on the side of religious freedom.
Of course I would prefer to have a candidate who believes exactly as I do in all matters: religion, politics, my favorite teams, etc. Who doesn’t? But my vote will go to the candidate who most closely conforms to my positions, especially as to domestic and foreign policy.
Ok; but we are ALSO going to...
... put heretical MORMONism playing CHRISTIAN in the SPOTlight, too!
It does; as well as FREEDOM of Speech.
That's why the world is going to learn about MORMONism: the Illegal Alien of the 'christian' world.
This was a quote. Additionally, that same author (Volluz) capsulized in his study toward the END of his piece: "The concept that Jesus is the elder brother of the human family is not expressly set forth in the standard works..."
(The "standard works" of Mormonism includes the Bible)
#2 The official Lds magazine Ensign included this graph: On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to someespecially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers
.But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifers older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)
Secondary source: Is Jesus Christ the Spirit Brother of Satan?
Please note re: the bold-face references that the Lds church had an opportunity to pick which "firstborn" passages it would reference in trying to back this belief up...it chose Col. 1:15 & a D&C reference...but not Romans 8:29.
#3 So what's the reason that Mormons (BYU/Lds Church via Ensign; Corbin Volluz) all avoided tying in Romans 8 to "Elder Brother?"
Simply put..."adoption" doesn't fit into the Mormon scheme of firsthand spirit child-bearing. Note that I indeed covered the "adoption" angle in the second post (see #5...because indeed the context for Romans 8 is adoption...) Please see the rest of the second post re: the way Mormons use "Elder Brother" to dilute the uniqueness of Christ.
Between your post & the one by mom4melody (see my response post #13), who's calling for any curtailment of religious freedom?
The same Qs I asked of mom4melody in post #13, apply to you...Are you consistent? Or hypocritical?
Lets not mix up what is GODs eternal TRUTH and what some conman from the 1830's claimed!
Let's not deny GOD and vote for a man who is either a DECEIVED Mormon or a DECEIVING one.
One whose very life is a witness to FALSEHOOD and DECEPTION.
Sorry; but your logic is wrong.
When I was in the service, I was an American AMONG many brethen: the Thai citizens of Southeast Asia.
So; who don't?
But my vote will go to the candidate who most closely conforms to my positions, especially as to domestic and foreign policy.
And mine (or lack of it) will 'go' to the one who does NOT believe in some damnable heresy that NO CHRISTIAN religion accepts as authentic.
I will add:
Or make him your LEADER!!!
The Lord can use leaders who don’t know him for good as well. He used the ruler of Persia to free the Israelites from Babalyonian captivity.
And if your ancestor was a slave owner...does that make you a slave owner? I’m missing the point of tying this belief to an ancestor of Mitt Romney.
The same Qs I asked of mom4melody in post #13, apply to you...Are you consistent? Or hypocritical?
I don’t object to Obama on religious grounds (his religion is hard to identify), I am being consistent.
No...Jesus is NOT the elder brother of all people on earth...per john 8 that is unorthodox.
Yes thru adoption we become his children, but that is NOT the way Mormons exegete this...otherwise they would quote rom 8 29 vs avoiding it...
What I mean by lds "reducing" Jesus to "elder brother" status can be found in two parallel illustrations...
* people call Jesus a good teacher...orthodox wise jesus was/is rabboni...a master teacher...but Jesus transcends being only a good teacher...somebody can state a technically true attribute and yet still be reductionistic...
* likewise a man approached Jesus in the gospels with the greeting "good teacher"...Jesus responded "why do you call me good?" Jesus didn't question His own goodness there...what the man said was technically true...yet Jesus chose to address the faulty worldview presumption baggage
note* I did place a edit i mis-edited a line and corrected in about 30 seconds.
the I do have great disagreement with...
Obviously not. Yet I myself am a descendent of a Mormon polygamist...given the false seeds that have been poured into the world by my family's name, am I 100% off the hook re pouring some true seeds into the world...in part as a counterbalance?...If that is true of my family's Mormonism, why not Mitt's family Mormonism?
As for tying this in to his ancestry...mitt has said he will not depart from the faith of his fathers...he said that december of 07
The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator,
that everything was created THROUGH Him, BY Him and FOR Him.
They deny Jesus created the angels and the universe out of nothing.
thanx for responding...you missed my point...perhaps I wasn't clear enough...my comment wasn't aimed at your commentary...or lack of it...aimed directly at obama...it was rather, "where have you been in failing to defend obama and his religious beliefs when they have come under fire by freepers?" You came in here using a "religious freedom" defense of romney...have you consistlently offered the same "religious freedom" defense on behalf of obama? IF NOT, WHY NOT?
The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created BY Him.
The lds-org is a thief of the Name and the Truth of Jesus Christ.
Did you know this “Lord can use...leaders who don’t know him” argument could be used by Christians to defend voting for Obama...do you really want vto go there?
Having taken human form to offer us salvation, Jesus became our brother in the sense of the “brotherhood of man”. All men are our brothers in that sense, even brother Obama. You can choose your friends, but you can’t choose your relatives!
Mitt Rmoney’s political dishonesty is infamous.
His lds contacts serve to support, excuse and promote that dishonesty.
At this point, if the election were held today, I would vote for none of the above ... or I’d look for a 3rd party conservative.
Colofornian is reminding us on a daily basis that, for many people, it would violate our consciences to vote for Rmoney.
wanna explain since you are our current lone lds rep in this thread why volluz, why byu peers who reviewed volluz' work, and why ensign mag [see post to campion with "secondary source" link] all point to a lack of standard works' undergirding for this concept?
also, care to explain "children of the devil" phrase by Jesus in John 8 if Jesus was really the brother of all? THIS is where lds are lacking in trying to explain passages like John 1:12 and 13 and adoption passages in romans 8 and also ephesians...even book os mosiah in bom militates vs lds concepts here
Thanks for the clarification. I don’t support Obama, so I don’t intend to defend him. I do, reluctantly, support Romney, so I do defend him. I will let others who do support Obama come to his defense. I am sure you read any number of posts on this site, and comments that follow. I disagree with many things that are said here, but only occasionally do I post replies. That doesn’t mean that I agree with those posts.
I suspect, but can’t prove, that if Obama were conservative, or if Romney were more conservative (I know, many say that he is not conservative at all.) that the religious commentary would be greatly, if not completely, eliminated. After all, Mormonism existed long before Romney became a candidate.
mormonISM has been talked about on FR for nearly a decade, why should this discussion be stopped because a candidate is a practitioner of mormonISM.
This is the Religion Forum after all.
Of course put BHO and all you presented in the limelight - I agree.
You might want to start a new thread say in Chat or general information, this is the Religion Forum and the thread is about mormonIMS.
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