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John Calvin was America’s ’Founding Father’ [Presbyterian Rebellion Day]
Christian Telegraph ^

Posted on 07/04/2012 7:38:25 PM PDT by Gamecock

More than a thousand attendees are expected to gather for a four-day conference to celebrate John Calvin's 500th birthday, reports Michael Ireland, chief correspondent, ASSIST News Service.

As America prepares to celebrate Independence Day this July 4, Vision Forum Ministries will be hosting the national celebration to honor the 500th birthday of John Calvin, a man who many scholars recognize as America's "Founding Father."

The event -- The Reformation 500 Celebration -- will take place July 1-4 at the Park Plaza Hotel in downtown Boston, according to a media release about the event.

"Long before America declared its independence, John Calvin declared and defended principles that birthed liberty in the modern world," noted Doug Phillips, president of Vision Forum Ministries.

"Scholars both critical and sympathetic of the life and theology of Calvin agree on one thing: that this reformer from Geneva was the father of modern liberty as well as the intellectual founding father of America," he said.

Phillips pointed out: "Jean Jacques Rousseau, a fellow Genevan who was no friend to Christianity, observed: 'Those who consider Calvin only as a theologian fail to recognize the breadth of his genius. The editing of our wise laws, in which he had a large share, does him as much credit as his Institutes. . . . [S]o long as the love of country and liberty is not extinct amongst us, the memory of this great man will be held in reverence.'"

He continued: "German historian Leopold von Ranke observed that 'Calvin was virtually the founder of America.' Harvard historian George Bancroft was no less direct with this remark: 'He who will not honor the memory and respect the influence of Calvin knows but little of the origin of American liberty.'

"John Adams, America's second president, agreed with this sentiment and issued this pointed charge: 'Let not Geneva be forgotten or despised. Religious liberty owes it much respect.'

"As we celebrate America's Independence this July 4, we would do well to heed John Adams' admonition and show due respect to the memory of John Calvin whose 500th birthday fall six days later," Phillips stated.

Calvin, a convert to Reformation Christianity born in Noyon, France, on July 10, 1509, is best known for his influence on the city of Geneva, the media release explains.

"It was there that he modeled many of the principles of liberty later embraced by America's Founders, including anti-statism, the belief in transcendent principles of law as the foundation of an ethical legal system, free market economics, decentralized authority, an educated citizenry as a safeguard against tyranny, and republican representative government which was accountable to the people and a higher law," the release states.

The Reformation 500 Celebration will honor Calvin's legacy, along with other key Protestant reformers, and will feature more than thirty history messages on the impact of the Reformation, Faith & Freedom mini-tours of historic Boston, and a Children's Parade.

The festivities will climax on America's Independence Day as attendees join thousands of others for the world-renowned music and fireworks celebration on the Esplanade with the Boston Pops Orchestra.


TOPICS: Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: calvin
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1 posted on 07/04/2012 7:38:36 PM PDT by Gamecock
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To: Gamecock
"John Adams, America's second president, agreed with this sentiment and issued this pointed charge: 'Let not Geneva be forgotten or despised. Religious liberty owes it much respect."
2 posted on 07/04/2012 7:39:31 PM PDT by Gamecock (I worked out with a dumbbell yesterday and I feel vigorous!)
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

3 posted on 07/04/2012 7:42:12 PM PDT by Gamecock (I worked out with a dumbbell yesterday and I feel vigorous!)
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To: Gamecock

Calvinism has turned into the “new” version of the Catholic Church.

They have become that which they protested against.

What do I mean?

They have abandoned Sola Scriptura for the new doctrine of Calvinism.

If it can’t be learned, proved, and taught from the bible, it should not belong in a Christian church. 5 point Calvinism fits into that. It has become a doctrine taught outside of the bible, with a few weak proof-texts taken out of context, and not using the whole council of scripture.

It’s a sad day for Christendom when people are more quick to defend Calvin than Christ.


4 posted on 07/04/2012 7:44:20 PM PDT by BereanBrain
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To: Gamecock

Americans should learn about Reformation-era Europe.

There was so much going on in Europe during the few hundred years prior to America’s founding that really is key to understanding a little about what was going on in the minds of those who really “started” America.

La Rochelle, New Rochelle, etc.

Reformation-era Europe is eye-popping history that for Americans today, comfortably and dispassionately looking back, is chock-full of lessons that we need.


5 posted on 07/04/2012 8:10:26 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves.)
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To: BereanBrain

Calvinism has turned into the “new” version of the Catholic Church.

That is a very sweeping and inaccurate accusation against all Reformed churches.
May I suggest a visit to sermonaudio.com. Visit a whole world of Reformed churches preaching Sola Scriptura.
When I was introduced to Calvinism, aside from my basic knowledge of the Reformation, I wondered who is this guy, Calvin?
Of course, I would never consider substituting Calvin’s Institutes for my Bible...that is ridicules, but after reading Institutes it’s hard to understand how anyone could not be blessed and humbled by Calvin’s exposition of the Scripture. He stands head and shoulders above most of what passes for preaching in a lot of pulpits these days.
Just my humble opinion.


6 posted on 07/04/2012 8:11:09 PM PDT by WestwardHo
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To: Gamecock

John Calvin was an evil tyrant. Were he alive in Geneva today, it would be considered on par with hellholes like North Korea.


7 posted on 07/04/2012 8:16:21 PM PDT by balch3
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To: BereanBrain

Calvin was a theologian, just a man, Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, the Son of God.

I find Calvin’s writings (though I’ve only read a very small portion of them) to be quite excellent exposition on Scripture, as have millions of other Christians.

If you’ve read most of Calvin’s writings, and for every point you disagree, you can provide Scriptural proofs as to why your viewpoint is correct and Calvin is incorrect, then I’d understand you dismissing all of his exegesis in 8 sentences, even if I did not agree. Otherwise, such a brief yet complete dismissal of all the works of such a remarkable theologian could only be considered uninformed.

Perhaps we could start with one simple point (in the interest of time) that he made where you have a better interpretation of Scripture ?

Perhaps we might have a religious forum discussion that would prove profitable for everyone.


8 posted on 07/04/2012 8:32:36 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves.)
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To: WestwardHo

Sola Scriptura is alive and well in my reformed baptist congregation and we aren’t alone. After decades of study I became a Calvinist and left my traditional Southern Baptist church home based solely on what I found in Scripture. I got to the point that I could no longer deny the plain truths taught in the Word and realized the poor hermeneutical methods commonly employed by those against Calvinism, a group which included my own beloved pastor. All freewill systems honor the will of men. The Doctrines of Grace honor the Lord.

Ephesians 1:

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Romans 9:16 “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.”


9 posted on 07/04/2012 8:32:47 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: balch3

What abject ignorance. Calvin is among the greatest liberators in human history.


10 posted on 07/04/2012 8:35:54 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt

http://www.traditioninaction.org/religious/e034rpCalvin_Franca05.htm


11 posted on 07/04/2012 8:39:24 PM PDT by balch3
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To: Gamecock

“The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox’s gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.”—C. H. Spurgeon


12 posted on 07/04/2012 8:40:50 PM PDT by Ottofire (Philippians 1:21: For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.)
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To: balch3

I figured you were a papist.


13 posted on 07/04/2012 8:44:13 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: Ottofire

You saved me the trouble of posting that quote.


14 posted on 07/04/2012 8:45:36 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: Gamecock

Interesting quote from Adams. Wasn’t he a unitarian?


15 posted on 07/04/2012 8:47:39 PM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: BereanBrain

Sir, with all due respect..you don’t know what you’re talking about. Nothing of what you’ve said here is true.

In all honesty, I once had pretty much the same ideas about Calvinism that you’ve suggested. BUT then, I admit that I had not actually searched the Scriptures to see if these ideas were true; I probably simply got these ideas from others whom I respected.

Sure, I admit it; I was lazy, because I hadn’t actually spent anytime in the Scriptures to see if what the Reformed taught, was actually there in the Bible. I just took it for granted that what my respected friends and teachers said about Calvinism was true.

But, one day, some time ago; I was challanged to read Loraine Boettner’s “THE REFORMED DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION”. This book was written in 1929-30 by a graduate from Princeton,(when Princeton still graduated Conservative scholars.) The book contains a logical and systematic presentation of what the Scriptures actually teach in regard to the 5 points of Calvinism. It is a book that is well worth the time to SLOWLY read and THINK about what you are reading.

I could NOT refute what Boettner said in this book. All my objections, indeed; all of the objections to Calvinism that I had ever heard, were met “head on”, and answered.

As I read, and thought deeply about what this book said, I had to “swallow my pride”, so to speak, and admit to myself that I was very wrong about what Calvinism is.

The Reformed Faith is true to the Scriptures. Now, I can say this till I’m blue in the face..but you won’t believe me until you’ve actually done the work yourself, that is; studied these issues logically and systematically, by seeing what the Scriptures actually teach. I had my Bible open and followed along in the Scriptures, while thinking about Boettner’s arguments in the book. I found that he was not “making stuff up”, he actually provided Scriptural proof for what he was saying.

To that end, since Boettner is now in the Public Domain, the book is available to read ON LINE here = http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.toc.html

And, if you might possibly wish to read it on your Tablet, or any other device..here’s the book in PDF format, from my Dropbox account = https://dl.dropbox.com/u/16063967/Boettner-Predestination.pdf

So, please do what I did; accept the challange; read Boettner, and TRY to refute what he says in this book.. I bet that, after you’ve HONESTLY read the book, (No skimming, or skipping chapters, as some people do!) and thought deeply about his conclusions..you may come to the same position that I did; that Calvinism is indeed true to the Scriptures..but you won’t know that, until you’ve read, and thought about what the book says.

Boettner has not written the only book regarding these matters. There are many other books available that will answer the various criticisms and objections that people may have in regard to Calvinism.

I’ve talked about Boettner, simply because this is the book that turned LIGHTBULBS on over my head! After reading this book, everything made sense!

So, go ahead.. read it; if only to see if what you’ve always thought about Calvinism is true. I think you may be pleasantly surprised!


16 posted on 07/04/2012 9:08:12 PM PDT by Biblical Calvinist (Soli Deo Gloria !)
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To: Gamecock

The Catholic Church was established in Florida decades and decades before the Pilgrims came to America.


17 posted on 07/04/2012 9:09:31 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

don’t expect these prods to listen.


18 posted on 07/04/2012 9:28:25 PM PDT by balch3
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To: Salvation

true.

Native American predated the Church.

Do you feel they founded America?


19 posted on 07/04/2012 9:35:24 PM PDT by NoLibZone (We must get down on our knees each day and thank God that McCain/Palin didn't win in '08. Right?)
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To: balch3

Is the Catholic Church the only path to salvation?


20 posted on 07/04/2012 9:38:08 PM PDT by NoLibZone (We must get down on our knees each day and thank God that McCain/Palin didn't win in '08. Right?)
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To: .45 Long Colt
"Calvin is among the greatest liberators in human history."

"Build a man a fire and you will warm him for a day. Light a man on fire and you will warm him for the rest of his life." - Jean Calvin

21 posted on 07/04/2012 9:42:16 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: BereanBrain
It’s a sad day for Christendom when people are more quick to defend Calvin than Christ.

Oh, come on! What did Christ do for the Church!?
[/heavy sarcasm]

22 posted on 07/04/2012 9:43:21 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: NoLibZone
"Is the Catholic Church the only path to salvation?"

No. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

23 posted on 07/04/2012 9:46:47 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law

That came about in the sixties with Vatican II, didn’t it?

Prior to that point, Catholics were forbidden to even read the Protestant Bible. Catholics were forbidden to express support for religious freedom, speaking specifically of John Courtney Murray, that being the most high profile instance in the modern era, but there were certainly others. Those Christians outside the Catholic church were deemed heretic and unsaved.

While it does my heart good to see you guys embracing religious freedom, since it’s better late than never even if it was two centuries overdue (and it was), invariably the same individuals rail against Vatican II which brought this about.

Quite the twist some Catholics find themselves in, I’d say.


24 posted on 07/04/2012 10:00:09 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Salvation

Killed a bunch of French Huguenot settlers at Ft. Caroline back in those decades, didn’t they?


25 posted on 07/04/2012 10:04:45 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

What was the first Catholic Church in America?

 
The first Catholic settlement in North America was the Spanish-Catholic colony founded at St. Augustine, Florida, in 1565.

26 posted on 07/04/2012 10:07:10 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: RegulatorCountry

And Catholics were not allowed to vote or hold public office in those days.

Talk about discrimuination.


27 posted on 07/04/2012 10:07:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; Sirius Lee; lilycicero; MaryLou1; glock rocks; JPG; Monkey Face; RIghtwardHo; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


28 posted on 07/04/2012 10:13:40 PM PDT by narses
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To: Salvation

That’s certainly mild compared to the treatment Protestants received at the hands of Catholic state churches, leading to their fleeing to the English colonies in North America.

Be grateful for the kindness rather than sour over state church advocates being excluded from elected office in a country that forbade a state church.

You do see the conflict, being an advocate of religious freedom, don’t you?


29 posted on 07/04/2012 10:13:50 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Salvation

... and guess when Ft. caroline was established. 1564.

So, I’m sorry, bragging rights belong to a bunch of French Huguenot “prods.” Too bad none of them lived to tell about it.


30 posted on 07/04/2012 10:17:06 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry
"Prior to that point, Catholics were forbidden to even read the Protestant Bible."

Catholics have never been forbidden to read the Bible. It was the Catholic Church that canonized and commissioned the production of a Bible in the common language of Europe in the 4th century. Although some heretical translations were prohibited, no Bible accepted by any mainstream Protestant denomination today was ever on the list.

For the record, Fr. John Courtney Murray was silenced not because of his position on eccumenicalism but because of his advocacy for birth control and abortion and toleration of politicians who supported it.

The Church has always been an advocate for religious liberty because it has so often been the victim of those opposed to it.

Peace be with you.

31 posted on 07/04/2012 10:39:42 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Natural Law
From Encyclopaedia Brittanica:

In the late 1940s Murray began to grapple with the problem of how the beliefs of a pluralistic, democratic society such as that of the United States could be integrated into the teachings of the Roman Catholic church. Murray was an outspoken opponent of censorship on the part of the Vatican, and, indeed, was opposed to any effort by the church to bring about change within states by means other than moral persuasion. Many of his writings on these topics first appeared in Theological Studies, a quarterly journal published by Woodstock College, of which Murray became editor in 1941. By the mid-1950s he was forbidden by the Jesuit order to write on topics pertaining to religious freedom and issues of church and state...

So, it would seem that advocating religious freedom led to John Courtney Murray being censored by the Catholic Church. Rather odd, wouldn't you say, if your characterization is correct?

32 posted on 07/04/2012 10:50:50 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry
"So, it would seem that advocating religious freedom led to John Courtney Murray being censored by the Catholic Church."

Thr Fr. Murray story is a fascinating one that the Encyclopedia Brittanica frankly got wrong. The 20th century saw a continuing struggle within the Church between the Modernists and the Traditionalists. Modernism had been declared a heresy bu St. (then Pope) Pius X and all Catholic clergy were required to take an oath against it. Fr. Murray was silenced in 1954 for his public and persistent advocacy of Modernism in direct disobedience to his order, his bishop and the Vatican. He was not excommunicated, just forbidden from publishing and publically speaking on anything not approved in advance.

Fr. Murray was called to Rome to assist in the development of the Dignitas Humanae doctrine in Vatican II. In spite of his contributions Fr. Murray continued his pro-modernist advocacy and, in defiance of the Church took public positions in favor of abortion, birth control, dialog and cooperation with Marxists and a number of hot button issues in the 60's. Had he not died of a heart attack in 1967 he probably would have been excommunicated.

Your Catholic "hero" represented everything you hate about the Church and gave political cover to the likes of Ted Kennedy. The Church is still working to undo the damage he caused.

Peace be with you

33 posted on 07/04/2012 11:34:46 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Gamecock

bookmark.


34 posted on 07/05/2012 12:25:42 AM PDT by dadfly
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To: BereanBrain
"5 point Calvinism fits into that. It has become a doctrine taught outside of the bible, with a few weak proof-texts taken out of context, and not using the whole council of scripture."

Nonsense. There is no point of what you call "5 point Calvinism" which cannot be found in the anti-Pelagian writings of St. Augustine.

35 posted on 07/05/2012 1:17:53 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: Gamecock
I don't agree with this reformer from Geneva was the father of modern liberty as well as the intellectual founding father of America, -- that's hyperbole. Yes, Calvin's revolt against rulers (perhaps in tune with Swiss concepts) had an impact on the French and American revolutions, but the father or founding father? No.

Also, Religious liberty owes it much respect is false -- Geneva was as merciless in rooting out those who didn't follow it's state religion as Lutherans or Catholics were.

if we talk about religious liberty, later Anglicanism has a higher position, but only from the 1800s.

Rather, I would put the concept of religious liberty to the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth (and no, this was not because the Poles were Catholics) which had religious liberty for Catholics, Orthodox, Jews, Lutherans, Muslims, Armenian Orthodox, Unitarians and Calvinists too --> the Calvinists did compromise their position by supporting the invading Swedes during the Potop. This resulted in a sharp decline of Calvinism after the Swedes were kicked out -- not due to government pressure so much as people leaving a "foreign influence". Lutheranism wasn't seen as supporting foreigners so much either

Anyway, I digress -- Calvinism was not associated with civil liberty in the 1700s, neither was Catholicism or Orthodoxy or Lutheranism or Anglicanism. Mennonites yes, but they weren't associated with any nation state.

36 posted on 07/05/2012 1:25:37 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Gamecock; BereanBrain
They have abandoned Sola Scriptura for the new doctrine of Calvinism.

incorrect. After the reformation, Calvin, Zwingli and Luther realised that the way of let's call it "pure ss" or anyone picking up a Bible, reading a verse or two and proclaiming a new division, was wrong

They had a council to have a fixed set of beliefs

The Calvinists stick to the tenets of the faith as encapsulated in the Nicene Creed. No innovations to that like, sorry, Oneness Pentecostalism or Jehovah's Witnesses etc.

Five-point Calvinism seeks to explain the Bible, not replace it -- hence the PCUSA's proclaiming of gay-marriages is wrong because it subverts scripture. But this does not mean that the Calvinists have used the 5points to replace scripture but rather complement

I don't agree with them, but I've not seen a Calvinist do that (replacing)

37 posted on 07/05/2012 1:29:53 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: PieterCasparzen; Gamecock
Reformation-era Europe should NOT be read purely in the context of religion. For instance the 30 years war in Germany. That seems on the outset to be Catholic v/s Lutheran, but then one sees that Catholic France was fighting alongside Protestants???

Then one sees Lutheran princelings crushing baptist etc. serfs

What was going on?

You cannot read this without reading how the Holy Roman Empire was Catholic and the little Lords, Dukes etc. in northern Europe used the Reformation to declare their independence

you cannot read it without reading how France used the opportunity to weaken the Holy Roman Empire (i.e. how West Francia stole a march over East Francia) and how the Turks used this European turmoil to their own advantage

38 posted on 07/05/2012 1:33:00 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: .45 Long Colt; balch3
More examples of ignorance. Calvin was no "liberator" -- in Geneva he Stephen Hick's "John Calvin's Geneva
The city-state of Geneva was in effect, a police state, ruled by a Consistory of five pastors and twelve lay elders, with the bloodless figure of the dictator looming over all, John Calvin....

Frail, thin, short, and lightly bearded, with ruthless, penetrating eyes, he was humorless and short-tempered. The slightest criticism enraged him. Those who questioned his theology he called “pigs,” “asses,” “riffraff,” “dogs,” “idiots,” and “stinking beasts.” One morning he found a poster on his pulpit accusing him of “Gross Hypocrisy.” A suspect was arrested. No evidence was produced, but he was tortured day and night for a month till he confessed. Screaming with pain, he was lashed to a wooden stake. Penultimately, his feet were nailed to the wood; ultimately he was decapitated.
  1. Belot, an Anabaptist was arrested for passing out tracts in Geneva and also accusing Calvin of excessive use of wine. With his books and tracts burned, he was banished from the city and told not to return on pain of hanging (J.L. Adams, The Radical Reformation, pp. 597-598).
  2. Jacques Gruent was racked and then executed for calling Calvin a hypocrite
  3. A man who publicly protested against the reformer's doctrine of predestination was flogged at all the crossways of the city and then expelled.
  4. Calvin's Letter to the Marquis Paet, chamberlain to the King of Navarre, 1561. "Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels [Anabaptists and others], who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."
Sources quoted in Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, vol. 8: From Other Sources: "Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?" James 3:11.

NOTE: he was as bad as anyone else in his day. He was no "liberator".

39 posted on 07/05/2012 1:37:17 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: RegulatorCountry
The Huguenots make a big sob story about their reparations but never mention that they were the losing side in a war in which they fired the first shot

let's trace the Huguenots, shall we. In france, under Francis I, France was tolerant of all religious views

however, what did the Huguenots do? In the affair of the placards they posted placards all over Paris and even on the bedchamber door of the king (a security breach that angered him and made him change his tolerance position) -- these placards were attacks on Catholics.

So, instead of discussing, the Huguenots went to attack the Catholic majority who until then were content to let them live and debate and discuss and debate. Incidently, until this time the Huguenots were increasing, like the Moslems in Bradford, but then they started to get shrill and wake people up with their attacks

This polemic was an attack and the Huguenots started this retaliation.This was in 1534

Next, came the French wars of religion in which the Huguenots conspired against the King. This, added to the previous attack meant that they now publically came to attack the conservative forces. The progressives of the Huguenots were the precursors of the Revolutionaires

The people who became Huguenots were primarily the urban elite, like our present-day New Yorkers who take a fad and they saw that this was a means to oppose the King, so Huguenotism became a political tool

A group of Huguenots tried to kidnap the Prince Francis II when his father died -- causing more antagonism.

Huguenots in 1560 attacked Catholic Churchs and destroyed properties in Rouen and La Rochelle -- thus the FIRST salvo was lobbed by the Huguenots. -- the Catholics retailiated with mobs at seeing their places of worship attacked and defiled by Huguenots

Next, in 1562-70, we have the wars -- now political-religious, so no, it was not a simple case of "persecution" --> The Huguenots were one side of a civil war, which they lost

Now, let's come to the juicy part, the St. Bart's day massacre -- this occured in 1572, 40 years after the first provocations by the Huguenots and 12 years after they started destroying Catholic Churchs (just like the Moslems in America they were quiet until their numbers grew)

now, King Charles XI was openly in favor of the Huguenots -- so a political moment. Hence the attacks on the opposing side

So, let's see in conclusion -- Huguenots first start their provocations in 1534, then in 1560 start attacking Catholic Churchs (with no provocation), then start their political support against the conservatives and start a civil war. After 12 years their side loses the civil war and yet they are still allowed to live and practise their faith (note this is the 1500s, not a nice time, yet they get this tolerance) -- but they still play political intrigues. So, one faction starts to attack and massacre the other faction

so, stop the entire "poor persecuted Huguenots" -- they brought it on themselves. the Huguenots after doing their persecuting of Catholics, got retaliation, then they went to England and many to South Africa where they were among the racists enforcing Apartheid.

Many came to the US and Germany as well.

In England and Germany they were Calvinists in non-Calvinist lands, but no "persecution". In the US they were one of many and no, no "persecutions". In South Africa they were one of the folks doing the persecutions and in Northern Germany they enthusiastically participated in the Kulturkampf.

what persecution did they face once they left France?

As shown above (and you can check the facts for yourself), the Huguenots were the one who bit the hand that fed them, then launched the first attacks, started a civil war and then lost

They were like the Moslems in present day France -- slowly starting, making nice noises, but then attacking Christian churchs and finally starting a civil war.

They lost, tough luck --- the losers in the 1500s were not given much graces, yet they were allowed to stay with the same acts of tolerance AFTER losing politically. Yet they continued supporting political intrigues and there was a political massacre.

The Huguenots were on the losing side, so they got killed like the Catholics in England or in Scandanavia.

It was the 1500s, a pretty barbaric time

The mass killings of the Huguenots were done at the hands of rioters in a pogrom after it was learned that the Huguenots were conspiring with the English to stage a coup and facilitate an invasion. It is never healthy to conspire against a sitting king.

40 posted on 07/05/2012 1:42:35 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos

I’m not going to debate you in this thread or any other. You don’t understand Scripture and either you don’t know history or you are determined to misstate it to paint the Roman Catholic religion in a better light. Perhaps you are a priest, maybe even a Jesuit.

Yes, Calvin was a sinful man, just like the popes who for centuries presided over hideous tortures and even genocide for so-called “heretics.” They strangled and then burned heretic William Tyndale for daring to translate the Bible into the vulgar English tongue giving common people access to God’s Holy Word. What kind of “church” withholds God’s truth from men? Had I been alive during in certain times and places I would have been one of the inquisition targets because they tortured and murdered people who believe as I believe, namely that salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. Pursuant to the Council of Trent, I’m still under worthless anathemas.

Oh, and what was liberating about Calvin was his theology! Without men such as Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, and Knox, the American Revolution would not have happened as it did and our founding documents, if they even existed, would have looked radically different. Our nation has fought tyranny for countless millions around this planet. They have those protestant reformers like Calvin to thank. In contrast, Catholicism goes hand in hand with both theological and political oppression.


41 posted on 07/05/2012 6:10:27 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt
You don’t understand

Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

42 posted on 07/05/2012 6:25:09 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: .45 Long Colt
I’m not going to debate you in this thread or any other.

You mean you are not going to debate the scripture I posted?

don’t understand Scripture

You mean your inadequate mistranslations of Scripture don't stand up?

43 posted on 07/05/2012 6:37:22 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: .45 Long Colt
your statement Calvin is among the greatest liberators in human history. shows a need to read

I can recommend Stephen Hick's "John Calvin's Geneva

The city-state of Geneva was in effect, a police state, ruled by a Consistory of five pastors and twelve lay elders, with the bloodless figure of the dictator looming over all, John Calvin....

Frail, thin, short, and lightly bearded, with ruthless, penetrating eyes, he was humorless and short-tempered. The slightest criticism enraged him. Those who questioned his theology he called “pigs,” “asses,” “riffraff,” “dogs,” “idiots,” and “stinking beasts.” One morning he found a poster on his pulpit accusing him of “Gross Hypocrisy.” A suspect was arrested. No evidence was produced, but he was tortured day and night for a month till he confessed. Screaming with pain, he was lashed to a wooden stake. Penultimately, his feet were nailed to the wood; ultimately he was decapitated.
  1. Belot, an Anabaptist was arrested for passing out tracts in Geneva and also accusing Calvin of excessive use of wine. With his books and tracts burned, he was banished from the city and told not to return on pain of hanging (J.L. Adams, The Radical Reformation, pp. 597-598).
  2. Jacques Gruent was racked and then executed for calling Calvin a hypocrite
  3. A man who publicly protested against the reformer's doctrine of predestination was flogged at all the crossways of the city and then expelled.
  4. Calvin's Letter to the Marquis Paet, chamberlain to the King of Navarre, 1561. "Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels [Anabaptists and others], who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."
Sources quoted in Philip Schaff's History of the Christian Church, vol. 8: From Other Sources: "Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?" James 3:11.

NOTE: he was as bad as anyone else in his day. He was no "liberator".

44 posted on 07/05/2012 6:39:36 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos

I’ll pray for you.


45 posted on 07/05/2012 6:41:41 AM PDT by .45 Long Colt
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To: .45 Long Colt
Nah, Tyndale had no influence on the American revolution -- you do know that tyndale was there just about the time Columbus set sail and quite a while before American independence (btw, you were taught the old one "in 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue, right?

Oh, and you do know that we've been independent for about 200 odd years, right?

46 posted on 07/05/2012 6:44:28 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: .45 Long Colt

I’ll pray to Jesus Christ for you. If you want to pray to something else, go ahead, that’s your choice. We Christians will pray for you.


47 posted on 07/05/2012 6:55:21 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: .45 Long Colt
I'll pray to Jesus Christ for you. If you want to pray to something else, go ahead, that's your choice. We Christians will pray for anyone who thinks that a "great liberator" is someone who:

etc. Is Stalin in this list of yours of "great liberators"?

48 posted on 07/05/2012 6:57:59 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: .45 Long Colt
Yes, Calvin was a sinful man,...

So why do calvinists identify themselves first and foremost with a sinful man, rather than as a disciple of Jesus?

I call myself Christian--not calvinist, not catholic, Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, or any other denomination. I follow Christ, not the extra-biblical teachings of a sinful man who claims that God creates most men for the express purpose of throwing them into Hell.

49 posted on 07/05/2012 7:03:51 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: .45 Long Colt
with both theological and political oppression.

do read some history. Read about the Calvinist Hohenzollerns who forced the Lutherans in Prussia to submit to Calvinist ways.

50 posted on 07/05/2012 7:08:01 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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