Posted on 05/17/2012 5:40:57 PM PDT by Gamecock
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why.....
The number of people who have left the Catholic church is huge.
We all have heard stories about why people leave. Parents share stories about their children. Academics talk about their students. Everyone has a friend who has left.
While personal experience can be helpful, social science research forces us to look beyond our circle of acquaintances to see what is going on in the whole church.
The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.
Any other institution that lost one-third of its members would want to know why. But the U.S. bishops have never devoted any time at their national meetings to discussing the exodus. Nor have they spent a dime trying to find out why it is happening.
Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions. This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time.
Why do people leave the Catholic church to become Protestant? Liberal Catholics will tell you that Catholics are leaving because they disagree with the church’s teaching on birth control, women priests, divorce, the bishops’ interference in American politics, etc. Conservatives blame Vatican II, liberal priests and nuns, a permissive culture and the church’s social justice agenda.
One of the reasons there is such disagreement is that we tend to think that everyone leaves for the same reason our friends, relatives and acquaintances have left. We fail to recognize that different people leave for different reasons. People who leave to join Protestant churches do so for different reasons than those who become unaffiliated. People who become evangelicals are different from Catholics who become members of mainline churches.
Spiritual needs
The principal reasons given by people who leave the church to become Protestant are that their “spiritual needs were not being met” in the Catholic church (71 percent) and they “found a religion they like more” (70 percent). Eighty-one percent of respondents say they joined their new church because they enjoy the religious service and style of worship of their new faith.
In other words, the Catholic church has failed to deliver what people consider fundamental products of religion: spiritual sustenance and a good worship service. And before conservatives blame the new liturgy, only 11 percent of those leaving complained that Catholicism had drifted too far from traditional practices such as the Latin Mass.
Dissatisfaction with how the church deals with spiritual needs and worship services dwarfs any disagreements over specific doctrines. While half of those who became Protestants say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teaching, specific questions get much lower responses. Only 23 percent said they left because of the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality; only 23 percent because of the church’s teaching on divorce; only 21 percent because of the rule that priests cannot marry; only 16 percent because of the church’s teaching on birth control; only 16 percent because of the way the church treats women; only 11 percent because they were unhappy with the teachings on poverty, war and the death penalty.
The data shows that disagreement over specific doctrines is not the main reason Catholics become Protestants. We also have lots of survey data showing that many Catholics who stay disagree with specific church teachings. Despite what theologians and bishops think, doctrine is not that important either to those who become Protestant or to those who stay Catholic.
People are not becoming Protestants because they disagree with specific Catholic teachings; people are leaving because the church does not meet their spiritual needs and they find Protestant worship service better.
Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
Catholics who became Protestant also claim to have a stronger faith now than when they were children or teenagers. Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.
Thus, both as believers and as worshipers, Catholics who become Protestants are statistically better Christians than those who stay Catholic. We are losing the best, not the worst.
Some of the common explanations of why people leave do not pan out in the data. For example, only 21 percent of those becoming Protestant mention the sex abuse scandal as a reason for leaving. Only 3 percent say they left because they became separated or divorced.
Becoming Protestant
If you believed liberals, most Catholics who leave the church would be joining mainline churches, like the Episcopal church. In fact, almost two-thirds of former Catholics who join a Protestant church join an evangelical church. Catholics who become evangelicals and Catholics who join mainline churches are two very distinct groups. We need to take a closer look at why each leaves the church.
Fifty-four percent of both groups say that they just gradually drifted away from Catholicism. Both groups also had almost equal numbers (82 percent evangelicals, 80 percent mainline) saying they joined their new church because they enjoyed the worship service. But compared to those who became mainline Protestants, a higher percentage of those becoming evangelicals said they left because their spiritual needs were not being met (78 percent versus 57 percent) and that they had stopped believing in Catholic teaching (62 percent versus 20 percent). They also cited the church’s teaching on the Bible (55 percent versus 16 percent) more frequently as a reason for leaving. Forty-six percent of these new evangelicals felt the Catholic church did not view the Bible literally enough. Thus, for those leaving to become evangelicals, spiritual sustenance, worship services and the Bible were key. Only 11 percent were unhappy with the church’s teachings on poverty, war, and the death penalty Ñ the same percentage as said they were unhappy with the church’s treatment of women. Contrary to what conservatives say, ex-Catholics are not flocking to the evangelicals because they think the Catholic church is politically too liberal. They are leaving to get spiritual nourishment from worship services and the Bible.
Looking at the responses of those who join mainline churches also provides some surprising results. For example, few (20 percent) say they left because they stopped believing in Catholic teachings. However, when specific issues were mentioned in the questionnaire, more of those joining mainline churches agreed that these issues influenced their decision to leave the Catholic church. Thirty-one percent cited unhappiness with the church’s teaching on abortion and homosexuality, women, and divorce and remarriage, and 26 percent mentioned birth control as a reason for leaving. Although these numbers are higher than for Catholics who become evangelicals, they are still dwarfed by the number (57 percent) who said their spiritual needs were not met in the Catholic church.
Thus, those becoming evangelicals were more generically unhappy than specifically unhappy with church teaching, while those who became mainline Protestant tended to be more specifically unhappy than generically unhappy with church teaching. The unhappiness with the church’s teaching on poverty, war and the death penalty was equally low for both groups (11 percent for evangelicals; 10 percent for mainline).
What stands out in the data on Catholics who join mainline churches is that they tend to cite personal or familiar reasons for leaving more frequently than do those who become evangelicals. Forty-four percent of the Catholics who join mainline churches say that they married someone of the faith they joined, a number that trumps all doctrinal issues. Only 22 percent of those who join the evangelicals cite this reason.
Perhaps after marrying a mainline Christian and attending his or her church’s services, the Catholic found the mainline services more fulfilling than the Catholic service. And even if they were equally attractive, perhaps the exclusion of the Protestant spouse from Catholic Communion makes the more welcoming mainline church attractive to an ecumenical couple.
Those joining mainline communities also were more likely to cite dissatisfaction of the Catholic clergy (39 percent) than were those who became evangelical (23 percent). Those who join mainline churches are looking for a less clerically dominated church.
Lessons from the data
There are many lessons that we can learn from the Pew data, but I will focus on only three.
First, those who are leaving the church for Protestant churches are more interested in spiritual nourishment than doctrinal issues. Tinkering with the wording of the creed at Mass is not going to help. No one except the Vatican and the bishops cares whether Jesus is “one in being” with the Father or “consubstantial” with the Father. That the hierarchy thinks this is important shows how out of it they are.
While the hierarchy worries about literal translations of the Latin text, people are longing for liturgies that touch the heart and emotions. More creativity with the liturgy is needed, and that means more flexibility must be allowed. If you build it, they will come; if you do not, they will find it elsewhere. The changes that will go into effect this Advent will make matters worse, not better.
Second, thanks to Pope Pius XII, Catholic scripture scholars have had decades to produce the best thinking on scripture in the world. That Catholics are leaving to join evangelical churches because of the church teaching on the Bible is a disgrace. Too few homilists explain the scriptures to their people. Few Catholics read the Bible.
The church needs a massive Bible education program. The church needs to acknowledge that understanding the Bible is more important than memorizing the catechism. If we could get Catholics to read the Sunday scripture readings each week before they come to Mass, it would be revolutionary. If you do not read and pray the scriptures, you are not an adult Christian. Catholics who become evangelicals understand this.
Finally, the Pew data shows that two-thirds of Catholics who become Protestants do so before they reach the age of 24. The church must make a preferential option for teenagers and young adults or it will continue to bleed. Programs and liturgies that cater to their needs must take precedence over the complaints of fuddy-duddies and rubrical purists.
Current religious education programs and teen groups appear to have little effect on keeping these folks Catholic, according to the Pew data, although those who attend a Catholic high school do appear to stay at a higher rate. More research is needed to find out what works and what does not.
The Catholic church is hemorrhaging members. It needs to acknowledge this and do more to understand why. Only if we acknowledge the exodus and understand it will we be in a position to do something about it.
It's not a matter of earning or deserving but producing fruitage in obedience to Christ's commandments. (John 15: 1-10) Otherwise those branches would be removed from the vine and destroyed. They would have lost their salvation.
Exactly what Paul talking about, becoming disapproved, and the reason why we would keep testing whether we were still in the faith lest we become disapproved (by God).
The Israelites that came through the Red Sea were saved but lost that salvation in the wilderness as they were condemned to death.
“That after all that he had endured for the cause of Christ, he might somehow mess up and be sent to hell after all. Yet if this really was what he was saying, then he would be contradicting not only his own writings but the other Scripture writers as well”
What Scriptures show even a faithful person cannot become unfaithful, apostate and be condemned?
There can be intellectual assent to the existence of God but that is not necessarily trusting Him for salvation. That is a form of faith because it is believing in that which is unseen, but it does not translate into saving faith because no will has been involved, no repentance and confession. So no, THAT kind of "faith" cannot save you.
But once you are saved, you cannot lose it by failing to walk it out all the time. We all fall into sin and most sin begins in the heart anyway. Otherwise, you end up with the situation of Galatians 3 of beginning in the Spirit and expecting to be perfected in the flesh.
If you could gain salvation by works, then you could lose it by works. If salvation is gained by putting your trust in Christ for salvation, *accepting* Christ, then the only way to *lose* it would be to consciously choose to reject that gift and hand it back. Backsliding and falling into sin is not choosing to reject Christ. God knows our frame and remembers that we are dust.
Tell me, what's the difference in God's eyes between the very *small* sins of the godly and the gross sins of the tax collectors and prostitutes that Jesus hung around with?
That supposed “seer” makes this comment, “On Earth I instituted the Church”. That makes her a false “seer” or whatever you want to call her. Christ did NOT institute an earthly organization or institution called the “church”. As I showed in my previous post # 938 the concept of an earthly ruling authority over believers is no where to be found in scripture.
The site you link to is replete with so called “messages from Mary”. Once again that’s a totally unscriptural belief. No where in scripture is Mary elevated to the position Catholics give her and in reality has it’s origins in paganism.
"If salvation is gained by putting your trust in Christ for salvation, *accepting* Christ,
Which heart assent is a faith response, as even such, as is baptism, but it is God-given repentant faith that appropriates justficiation, which effects the “obedience of faith.” (Rm. 16:28)
then the only way to *lose* it would be to consciously choose to reject that gift and hand it back."
That forfeiture of what faith appropriated is what the Galatians were being warned against in Gal. 5:1-4, that of apostasy, in assenting to a different gospel in which souls are actually righteousness enough for Heaven because of his works, after they had been made free, and were in grace, and had the Holy Spirit in them, (Gal. 4:6; 5:1,4)
In Hebrews this was also warned against, of drawing back from Christ, "whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end," (Hebrews 3:6) unlike Israel's rebellion after having been given a great salvation, (Num. 14) and having “an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God,” (Heb. 3:12) with will-full impenitent sinning which was evidenced by forsaking the fellowship of the saints. (Heb. 10:25-39) To which is contrasted holding “the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end," (Hebrews 3:14) “which hath great recompence of reward.” (Heb. 10:35)
There can be intellectual assent to the existence of God but that.. does not translate into saving faith because no will has been involved, no repentance and confession. So no, THAT kind of "faith" cannot save you.
This is true, as faith, if it is salvific faith, will effect obedience toward its Object, the Lord Jesus, correspondent to the light one has, and thus in the moral sense, one who does not take care of his own family has denied the faith. (1Tim. 5:8) And thus God works to chasten disobedient souls unto repentance, for "when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world." (1 Corinthians 11:32)
“what's the difference in God's eyes between the very *small* sins of the godly and the gross sins of the tax collectors and prostitutes that Jesus hung around with?
There is a difference between an overall good man who struggles with a temper versus a habitual cold-blooded murderer, and the overall difference is between what characterizes a believers life, that of overall manifesting the “obedience of faith,” which includes repentance when convicted of not doing so (as David did after his sins regarding Bathsheba), versus impenitenly practicing unrighteousness even when convicted, or as one “past feeling,” having “given themselves over unto lasciviousness...” (Eph. 19) And with some there can be such a lack of “things which accompany salvation,” (Heb. 6:9) both in profession and repentance, by which Paul was sure that the Thessalonians were of the elect, (1Thes. 1:3,4) that he said of some, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? " (2 Corinthians 13:5)
Relative to this, 1John describes the characteristics of the saved versus the lost, and based upon “these things” souls may know that they have eternal life. (1Jn. 5:13)
Yet we cannot “hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end” unless we rest in Christ for our salvation, not that we actually deserve it, for "to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the unGodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. " (Romans 4:5) This speaks as to the actual basis for justification, versus actually being worthy, for what we actually deserve is the second death, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. " (Romans 6:23)
Yet again, as faith is manifested by what it effects, thus we are “joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together," (Romans 8:17) as "not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified," (Romans 2:13) as the intent and effect of grace is "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4)
Such does not mean souls earn salvation by the moral merit of their works, but we are counted righteous by a faith which will characteristically effect works of faith through the Spirit. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God," (Romans 8:14) and insofar as we do we “do mortify the deeds of the body.” (v.13; cf. Col. 3) overcoming evil with good. (Rm. 12:21)
If we rest in Christ for salvation, we will seek to glorify Him, not be seekng to earn eternal life for ourselves, but in reality, we should be seeking to do all to the glory of God (in a way that does) and all that will honor and glorify God, (thus ministering to God and others) in response to “so great salvation” (Heb. 32) at so great a cost. (Rm. 8:32) And which should so preoccupy us that that we should be willing to go to Hell if that would do so the most, as both Moses and Paul were, (Ex. 32:32; Rm. 9:3) having a true pastors heart.
And did i tell you how far short i come? Let us rest in Christ for salvation, and better obey Him as Lord,. The latter testifies to the former, as He is both, to the glory of God the Father.
This fellow was later restored it seems but until then he was in danger of losing his salvation for as Paul added in chapter 6:9-11 such actions (works) would bar one from inheriting God's kingdom.
Yet for others Paul said, “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,” (Heb. 10:26)
Willfully engaging in the practice of sin would lose one’s salvation.
“If you could gain salvation by works, then you could lose it by works”
Surely you are not saying that the salvation gained by putting faith in Christ cannot be lost by a practice of sinful “works” or actions, conduct.
Separating faith from action, belief from the doing and then supposing that one or the other was enough is exactly what James described as a “dead faith”, and Paul explained how that in every case he cited of faith it was demonstrated by what the person did, their conduct, “works” as in actively doing something.
Paul lists various acts done “by faith”, Abel offered a sacrifice, Rahab hid the spies (and ceased being a harlot), actions “by faith”.
Rahab was saved by her faith or by her works?
“Tell me, what's the difference in God's eyes between the very *small* sins of the godly and the gross sins of the tax collectors and prostitutes that Jesus hung around with?”
Sin is sin, a missing of the mark of perfection as we all do so all of us may properly be termed sinners.
Yet the Scriptures do distinguish between the small and the gross, the occasional sin due to human weakness and the habitual practice of sin. Stealing a pencil is sin but not the same as flying a jet liner into building.
1st. John discusses both a sin that incurs death and those that do not, but I'm straying away the topic of works and faith a bit.
Already mentioned are some requirements for salvation: Jesus said “endurance to the end” (Matt. 24:13), knowledge of the only true God and of Christ. (John 17:3) and more.
These are not apart from faith but an expression of it.
This fellow was later restored it seems but until then he was in danger of losing his salvation for as Paul added in chapter 6:9-11 such actions (works) would bar one from inheriting God's kingdom.
The guy was not in danger of losing his salvation...He was in danger of losing his life so that he would/could be saved...
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
And no, Paul did not say such actions would bar one from inheriting God's Kingdom...
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
What Paul said as you can see is that prior to being washed, sanctified and justified, one would be in danger of not inheriting the kingdom...
And praise God for that...
Indeed so. Evidently the claim of moral merit was being made by those in Matthew 7:21-23, they saying, “Look at our works!” in essence. Their acts, their works were not evidence of faith, fruitages of the spirit.
Then a man in a sexual relationship with his step mother COULD inherit God's kingdom?
“What Paul said as you can see is that prior to being washed, sanctified and justified, one would be in danger of not inheriting the kingdom...”
Those unwashed, unsanctified, unjustified were not in line to inherit the kingdom and if Christians engaged in such things they would not inherit the kingdom either for they would be what Peter called “dogs returning to their own vomit and sows rolling in the mire”. (2 Peter 2:22)
Yes, some Christians had formally engaged in those practices but they stopped and had the vomit and mire washed from them.
John 6 - “66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.Wow, where do you see the real presence in "You have the WORDS of eternal life. We BELIEVE and KNOW that you are the Holy One of God.67“You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”
Peter then and now recognizes that the real presence represents the way no matter why many walk away.
Perhaps, but what is often missed in this oft quoted text, the context of which is fruit testifying as to who is a true believer by evidential faith, is that the works being invoked in their defense are not revelatory of character, but of spiritual gifts, but charisms, being instruments to convey grace, do not constitute character, which is what determines how and out of which motive gifts will be used.
“A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. “ (Matthew 7:18-23)
Thus the Corinthians, who came behind in no gift, (1Cor. 1:7) were yet were carnal in their strife, and thinking of men above what was written. (1Cor. 4:6)
And as a result they misused the gifts were which given for the edification of the body, but which this does not impugn gifts, though some equate it with their carnality, but it evidences that the heart determines how an instrument meant to be for grace will be used.
As a Catholic...So the blood of Jesus only covers and pays for confessed sin.Jesus opened Heaven by His death on the Cross but His suffering death does not cover all our sins in meaning we are saved...justified. Apologist Jimmy Akin states better than I can.
“Jesus died once and for all to pay a price sufficient to cover all the sins of our lives, but God doesn’t apply his forgiveness to us in a once-and-for-all manner. He forgives us as we repent. That’s why we continue to pray “Forgive us our trespasses,” because we regularly have new sins that we have repented of—some venial and some mortal, but all needing forgiveness. -—Excerpt from an article by Jimmy Akin, Catholic Insight, The Limits of Forgiveness.”
The remaining payment for sin is withheld in until new sin is confessed to a priest and absolution and penance are complete?
So Catholics are judged on their state of unconfessed and not yet paid for sin AND the amount of good works one must perform to merit heaven. Correct?
Whatever the motives of those in Matt. 7 clearly their motives were not pure as Jesus said he never knew them, he didn’t recognize them.
In fact they were evil doers.
However, a truly saved person is not going to be a habitual, cold-blooded murderer. Such a man has no salvation to lose. he's already lost.
And David, while indeed murdering and committing adultery, was not habitually doing so.
And yet they DID have the works that many claim are the fruit of their salvation. And therein lies the problem.
Men can have the intellectual assent, do the works of their own strength and think they're saved because someone told them that those works were the evidence of their salvation and go to the grave deceived.
True saving faith WILL result in a change in behavior and attitude and actions.The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
I actually met someone once who was laughing about the born again's. He said that he had tried it once and it didn't work for him, or wasn't for him, or something to that effect. I was speechless at that point. I have no idea what happened to him as I never saw him again after that.
I still don't think God gives up that easily on us. Look at the father in the account of the prodigal. He still considered his son his son. He didn't disown him.
I have to agree with iscool on this one in regard to 1 Corinthians 5:5
They just add what ever suits their needs...And then they tell us it is bible truth...
With apologies, you have to look at why people walked away from Jesus. Check John 6 from which my quote was excerpted.
Jesus died once and for all to pay a price sufficient to cover all the sins of our lives, but God doesn’t apply his forgiveness to us in a once-and-for-all manner. He forgives us as we repent. That’s why we continue to pray “Forgive us our trespasses,” because we regularly have new sins that we have repented of—some venial and some mortal, but all needing forgiveness. -—Excerpt from an article by Jimmy Akin, Catholic Insight, The Limits of Forgiveness.
bkaycee:
“So Catholics are judged on their state of unconfessed and not yet paid for sin AND the amount of good works one must perform to merit heaven. Correct?”
~ ~ ~
Hi,
I should say first, DO NOT die in mortal sin. A topic for another thread since many Protestants reject greater (mortal) and lessor (venial) sins.
Remember in Revelation where it says nothing “unholy” enters
Heaven? It’s true, God is perfectly loving and perfectly
just. This means we must account for, make reparation for all our unloving actions (sins) during our life, that includes confessed sins. A person makes reparation here by or loving acts, prayers and sufferings and if not completed here, you make reparation over the veil in Purgatory.
back to the continued discussion over...
Our Lord’s death on the Cross does NOT justify anyone because salvation is a life long process. Every person, not only a Catholic person loses God’s presence in their soul when they commit a mortal (serious) sin. This is the reason...
Jesus established Confession -John 20:23-, the means to regain God’s presence in your soul. Protestants reject Sacramental Confession to a priest so you all have one recompense right now, you must with absolute contrition confess your mortal sins directly to God.
After the Great Warning, when God shows you personally, Protestants, not all, will have a change of belief. Just remember....
OSAS and as you often hear Protestants profess, “Jesus paid the price, His death on the Cross covers all our sins” are NOT true. Here’s some verses to help you see. Martin
Luther’s false “faith alone” so messes up Protestants.
Judged according to deeds:
Romans 2:5-8 - God will repay each man according to his works
2 Corinthians 11:15 - recompense accord to what one did in their body (their end will correspond to their deeds)
Colossians 3:24-25 - will receive due payment for whatever you do
1 Peter 1:17 - God judges impartially accordingly to one’s works
Revelation 20:12-13 - dead judged according to their deeds
________________
Assurance of Salvation?
Matthew 7:21 - It is not anyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Matthew 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Romans 11:23 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
1 Corinthians 9:27 - I punish my body and bring it under control, to avoid any risk that, having acted as herald for others, I myself may be disqualified.
1 Corinthians 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure, may fall
Philippians 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
Galatians 5:4 - separated from Christ, you’ve fallen from grace
2 Timothy 2:11-13 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ
Hebrews 6:4-6 - describes sharers of the Holy Spirit, who then fall away
Hebrews 10:26-27 - if we sin, after receiving the truth, judgment remains
2 Peter 2:17-22 - It would have been better for them never to have learned the way of uprightness, than to learn it and then desert the holy commandment that was entrusted to them.
“The site you link to is replete with so called “MESSAGES FROM MARY”. Once again that’s a totally unscriptural belief. No where in scripture is Mary elevated to the position Catholics give her and in reality has it’s origins in paganism.”
~ ~ ~
~CORRECTION~
The Seer from Brazil, known as “light of Mary” receives
messages from Our Lord AND His mother.
In the excerpt I posted from a recent message -May 20th,
Our Lord states He “instituted the Church” and He describes
the Great Warning. Remember what Our Lord shares especially about the Warning, Protestants know it as the “awakening” and we all can understand His meaning even if it is a translation.
May 20, 2012
..YOU SURPASS THE TIME OF THE TOWER OF BABEL, men compete with his Savor. Men has created to himself confusion, errors and selfishness.
MY DEVOTION FOR MINE IS QUICKLY FORGOTTEN. In this instant My Passion of Love is seen as a remote past and I LIVE IN MY PEOPLE. Painfully I see so many souls that are lost for the lack of one good word regarding this GREAT REALITY THAT IS MY PRESENCE IN EACH HUMAN BEING.
What libertinism, irreverence, outrage, vices, degeneration and denial, I constantly hear from the mouth of those who should adore Me!
This is the reason for the pleas, of the signs that you should not let go unnoticed, since they speak for themselves.
On Earth I instituted the Church so that My people would not go astray and now navigates through a sea of storms. The society corrupts My Consecrated ones, the society distract them from their obligations, infiltrating in them human power and degrading My Teachings.
~ ~ I will come and call on men’s conscience, without warning. I will call and will enter so they will see their atrocities and repent. I will place each one in front of himself and there will be no human creature that will resist My Will in My ardent desire to save them, in spite of this some will continue to be in sin, renouncing Me... ~ ~
http://www.revelacionesmarianas.com/english_version.htm
That's a lie from the pit of hell which makes that so called "seer" a wolf in sheeps clothing to be condemned and ignored.
That is a given, the point being that simply manifesting supernatural power (prophesying, casting out devils, “wonderful works”), while valid when from God (Mk. 16:20; Heb. 2:3,4) is not the same as the “things which accompany salvation,” (Heb. 6:9), which is mainly love for the brethren (which in those days was risky, as it is today in persecuted places).
“But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. {10} For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. {11} And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:” (Heb 6:9-11)
“Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; {4} Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. {5} For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. {6} And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: {7} So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. {8} For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.” (1 Th 1:3-8)
And here is a thought: i think even Lot, despite the negative aspects of his testimony, exampled some virtues that are rare today in the Western church. The man utterly refused to allow the men from God to lodge in the street, but like Lydia, (Acts 16:15) constrained the brethren to abide with his family, loving them more than his own, and risked his own life on their behalf (prohomosexual activists are still pressing against any man or door that withstands them, hence the need for help from angels), and had two daughters were were yet virgins, even in a city given to fornication (how many pastors today can claim that?) while the others were married (to men).
One must indeed “frontslide” (which those being warned in Gal. 5, etc. did) before he can backslide.
Wow, where do you see the REAL PRESENCE in “You have the WORDS of eternal life. We BELIEVE and KNOW that you are the Holy One of God.
They just add what ever suits their needs...And then they tell us it is bible truth...
~ ~ ~
No friend, The Holy Eucharist, the Real Presence is prefigured in the Old Testament and over and over again in the New Testament, Our Lord’s very words. The “reformers” rejected the Eucharist because they could not confect it, they rejected the Church and the New Covenant ministerial priesthood.
John 6:54-55
Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
Read on...
Only in John 6:57 does Our Lord say how He abides in
you and you in Him. In receiving the Eucharist.
John 6:57
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.
The thread, mostly disagreement over Scripture since it is
Protestant’s authority. Why? You can give your own meaning
to Scripture. Instead, read the quotes of the first
Christians, some of them knew the Apostles. Did they
believe in the Real Presence. Yes.
I walked away from the RCC to Jesus!
Jesus saves, not the Roman church. By Grace alone, Through Faith alone, in Christ Alone!
Isn't that what I've been saying already? That faith has action attached to it?
“I still don't think God gives up that easily on us. Look at the father in the account of the prodigal. He still considered his son his son. He didn't disown him.”
And was overjoyed when the young man repented of his wayward course and returned to the family.
“I have to agree with iscool on this one in regard to 1 Corinthians 5:5”
Being able to disagree without being disagreeable makes for good conversation.
John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:55 is the metaphor.
Amen!
Thanks be to GOD!
“Did we not do this and such in your name”.
Saying in so many words, “You owe me”.
Lot is an interesting fellow. He seems more righteous than good and a real contrast to Abraham.
Wouldn't a discussion of Lot's life be edifying?
I have search this out much over the years, and have seen two extremes, and can appreciate the reasoning behind both, but i believe the truth is in the middle.
I have a brother in Christ who told people that they can be perfect with God no matter what they do wrong, as long as they believe the promise of Jesus to save them as sinners, and that the only repentance in conversion is repenting from unbelief in Christ to save to believing His promise to give sinners eternal life
But which presents Jesus somewhat abstractly simply as as a gift-giver, and misconstrues faith to be just something that believes the promise to give eternal life. (While another church largely fosters faith in the power of their church to save whoever die as one of them).
On the other end are those who require souls to stop sinning and make Jesus their Lord in order to be converted, and to make contrite souls so sin focused (not Christ and grace conscious), no matter how little or rare, and so condemned so that they never or rarely can have assurance that they have eternal life. (Or must trust the self-proclaimed powers of the church to gain them eternal life.)
Another recent (Korean) cultic group teaches that since believers are righteous on Christ, who died for all their sins, then it is a denial of faith to confess sins and ask God to forgive them after conversion. (Thus few outside their elite group are considered saved.)
But what we see in the balanced soteriology of Scripture is not that of repenting from a detailed list of sins in conversion, but a basic turning to the Lord Jesus in faith to save them as damned and destitute sinners, helpless to escape Hell or gain Heaven, and instead trusting in the risen Lord Jesus to save them by His sinless shed blood, (Rm. 3:9-25)
But in which faith is an implicit basic repentance, that of choosing Light over Darkness, in contrast to the lost, (Jn. 3:19-21) as the Christ that was preached was one that loved righteousness and hated iniquity, and who will judge all men and make His enemies, which the lost are, His footstool. And which can be seen in studying Peter’s sermon in Acts 2.
Thus being convicted of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment, (Jn. 16:9) they turned to the Lord Jesus for salvation, and implicitly are also making a basic turn in their hearts from sin to Him, relative to the light they have (important to note).
Thus Paul “reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come” to lost Felix, (Acts 24:25) and Peter testified to lost Jews, “Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.”(Acts 3:26)
They therefore, having been told to repent and turn to God and appropriated justification by faith, (Rm. 4:1-7ff) they showed forth works which corresponded to repentance, (Acts 26:22) confirmatory of true, complete faith. (Ja 2)
And we ask God to forgive us, for while we are accepted in the Beloved, and positionally righteousness, yet God can have something against us, (Rv. 2:4,14,20) and which we need to set right.
And they were also warned about doing the opposite in denying the faith, by earning salvation or by impenitent willful practicing sin after having received so great salvation. (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 10:19-39)
And to reiterate, it is not that Christians cannot sin if they are saved, but that their life is characterized by righteousness, and repentance when convicted of not doing so.
Thus,
“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”
This is not in the absolute sense, as if a Christ never can do unrighteousness, or that the lost cannot do good things (such as the pagans did in showing kindness to the survivors in Acts 27), but it speaks in the continuous (doeth, committeth) and overall sense.
Therefore assurance of the salvation of souls is given to those who evidence things which accompany salvation, while “no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Eph 5:5-6)
If a believer impenitently, willfully engages in sin, and does not repent when convicted, God will chasten them, so that they can be motivated to repent, so that they will not be condemned with the rest of the world.
And yet we can also struggle with sin that we keep repenting from, “the sin which doth so easily beset us,” (Heb. 12:1) and which repentant response is a testimony to faith (i think Rm. 7 is a post conversion stage of Paul), which is much different from those who are careless about it, but to whom the Scriptures give encouragement to, that we (me) should look to Jesus (focused on Him, not sin), and so “run with patience the race that is set before us.” So may be pray that He will always be our (my) focus, and not even let the politics of the hour give us despair.
Good testimony and to hear from you bkaycee. And they all said Amen.
“Wouldn’t a discussion of Lot’s life be edifying?”
Well, apart from the negatives, he could teach us some things. Open our doors to the brethren and keep the church door closed to homosexual marriage,
I have already died to sin.
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Galatians 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Romans 7:6 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
Romans 7:17-20 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Romans 8:1-8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
In summation: We don’t need to beat ourselves over sins that have been forgiven.
John 6:55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
“John 6:55 is the metaphor.”
~ ~ ~
Eating His Flesh and drinking His blood (the Eucharist) -John 6:55- is a symbol, a metaphor for whoever believes (faith alone) in Christ -John 6:40-?
Eating His Flesh and drinking His blood (the Eucharist) -John 6:55- is a symbol, a metaphor for whoever believes (faith alone) in Christ -John 6:40-?Yes, The reality is belief (Faith, Trust) in Christ's substitutionary atonement and resurrection is how we appropriate God's salvation.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Acts 16:30 Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
Romans 4:3 “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness
You are totally right. If God did not even spare His own son, Jesus Christ, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall he not also FREELY give us all things (Rom. 8:32)? And those "all things" most certainly include the power to overcome whatever trials or tribulations that come our way.
Of course Satan wants us to feel defeated and he sure gets a lot of help from those "religious" people out there! He gets them to feel all smug and pious and holy and they look down their noses at all the "great unwashed" who don't meet their standards and then he kills two birds with one stone - gets the "religious" people to sin through pride and those they judge to be defeated and give up.
That is why the study of Scripture is so important to the Christian - it puts things in perspective (God's). If we did not know what the Bible said about salvation and we just relied upon our church leaders to explain it all, we maybe would STILL be lost. Just as Hebrews 12 talks about being disciplined by our Father in heaven, it is a sign that we are His when we ARE chastened - and we ALL need it. Paul said:
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined — and everyone undergoes discipline — then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.
Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. “Make level paths for your feet,” so that the lame may not be disabled, but rather healed. (Hebrews 12:5-12)
stpio:
Eating His Flesh and drinking His blood (the Eucharist) -John 6:55- is a symbol, a metaphor for whoever believes (faith alone) in Christ -John 6:40-?
“Yes, The reality is belief (Faith, Trust) in Christ’s SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT and resurrection is how we appropriate God’s salvation.”
~ ~ ~
You didn’t paste it above. This time you used “substitutionary atonement.” What happened to your word metaphor? Are you stating, eating His Flesh and drinking His blood (the Eucharist) are a symbol, a metophor for believing in (faith alone) Christ, that is what saves you? How do you figure? Jesus’ death on the Cross was real,
doesn’t it matter?
Oh, that Luther, he can apply Sola Fide to everything.
I disagree. Yes, Hebrews 11 speaks of the "stalwarts" of the faith and the only way WE can know about their faith was in their deeds. But God looks on the heart. I contend that a person who genuinely receives Jesus Christ as Savior and believes in Him, WILL have a faith that is demonstrated by their actions. How can it not? The very Spirit of God indwells us, our old sin nature no longer rules us and our new spirit nature is empowered to live in holiness. Granted, some people take longer than others to get there, but we will all be conformed, ARE being conformed, to the image of Christ and God does NOT let up - EVER.
A person who says they have faith will eventually show it to others by their life - it will be changed - and those who do not are demonstrating that their faith is not genuine. But it STILL does not mean that our works save us - they just don't - that is what grace means. We are sinners saved by grace, but we are STILL in our carnal, mortal, bodies. The more we live for Christ, the closer we get to the ideal God has for us, the better example we are to the lost. And they DO look at us. When Scripture speaks of branches being broken off and burned, someone being disapproved or a castaway, I think it is wrong to just assume that means "lose their salvation". It's wrong because God tells us that once we are His we will never BE cast away. Put on a shelf, harshly disciplined, get sick and die, maybe, but NOT condemned. We who are in Christ are not condemned. Living a "good" life does not save us, therefore, it also cannot KEEP us saved.
I should say first, DO NOT die in mortal sin.
“I have already died to sin.”
~ ~ ~
Must be why you guys are preaching Jesus did all by His
death on the Cross, He covered all your sins, you are justified because you’re sinless. Wow!! A saint on earth.
And such humility.....
>>”On Earth I instituted the Church”<<
That’s a lie from the pit of hell which makes that so called “seer” a wolf in sheeps clothing to be condemned and ignored.
~ ~ ~
Second time you said it, doesn’t make it true CB. Read
Matthew 16:18. Peter was given the “Keys” by Christ, they
are a symbol of authority. Peter was made leader of Christ’s Church on earth. Peter was the first Pope. God names leaders, remember from the Old Testament? Peter is
buried under the high altar at St. Peter’s Basilica. This
is all history.
The RCC compiled the Bible, it didn’t drop from Heaven
complete and it didn’t appear in 1517. 382 A.D., was the
year it was canonized. There were various writings, all
separate and not all of them divinely inspired. Somebody
had to decide guided by God the Holy Spirit. That was
Pope Damasus.
A famous quote, “To be deep in history is to cease to be
Protestant.” John Henry Newman
Also, just as in the Old Testament time, God gave a foolproof way that everyone could recognize who was really His prophet - everything they said God told them MUST happen exactly as they said it would. If what they said did not happen, God said they were FALSE PROPHETS and the people should not fear them nor be at all concerned by what they may say. False prophets were also to be stoned - as in executed - that's how picky God was about anyone who claimed to speak for Him. Today, not so much, it seems anyone can find people to follow them if they sound spiritual enough. As always, Scripture is the authority for truth claims about the Christian faith. Any prophet that declares something that goes against Scripture cannot be from God, it really is that simple.
“in every instance Paul spoke of faith there in Hebrews 11 he showed it was a faith demonstrated by ACTION and that is how our faith is expressed, by the kind of life we live, by our obedience to God as James made clear.”
~ ~ ~
James 2:24
Do you see that by works a man is justified; and NOT by faith only?
Exactly, it’s faith and works as James made clear. Our
“works” are our ACTIONS, our life choices, our lives lived. Faith is a free gift from God. Faith NEVER makes you do anything, you still have to choose a to do a good work. We’re not robots. Our choices, our “works” must be genuine, from the heart not a phony show, this is what Paul clarifies.
To follow Luther and His Sola Fide (faith alone), run away, it came from his own mind not God.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:55 is the metaphor.
~ ~ ~
John 6:51-52
I am the living bread which came down from heaven. [52] If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my FLESH, for the life of the world.
Jesus says that the bread which He will give for the life of the world is His flesh. When did He give His flesh for the life of the world? On the cross. Was that symbolic? If you think Jesus is speaking symbolically here when He says that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood, then you must also conclude that Jesus' death on the cross was symbolic...it wasn't really Jesus hanging up there...it was symbolic flesh and symbolic blood.
“I was wondering why all these purported “seers” and “prophets” and “apparitions” only seem to be toeing the CATHOLIC CHURCH LINE all the time? I wonder if these people who believe in them as legitimately from the Lord Jesus Christ would still think that if one or two of them started talking about how important it is to trust in Christ as Savior and read their Bibles and that it doesn’t matter what Church they go to as long as they teach the Bible and worship the Lord? Would they be so quick to advertise everything that comes out from them if they made it plain that the Catholic Church is not the only way to be saved but that it is through faith alone?
Also, just as in the Old Testament time, God gave a foolproof way that everyone could recognize who was really His prophet - EVERYTHING they said God told them MUST happen exactly as they said it would. If what they said did not happen, God said they were FALSE PROPHETS”...
~ ~ ~
I can answer your question. Reading the Protestant and
Catholic messages from Heaven for a few years, Our Lord is preparing everyone for one end time. There aren’t two boatbums.
The Catholic messages are more EXPLICIT for a reason. If
Our Lord stated specifically in a Protestant prophecy right
now, the Holy Eucharist is true, Protestants would not believe it so He gently speaks of this Truth. Seeeee...He is getting our brothers and sisters in Christ prepared to accept Catholicism.
IF any Protestants read the Protestant excerpts and messages I’ve posted they would read Jesus speaking of unity of oneness of belief and of the “full Truth.” He is that loving. Our Lord is actually preparing the world to accept the true faith.
Your second comment. Prophecy is a warning and a help,
if people believe and pray, SOME events can be mitigated. We see examples in the Old Testament. It isn’t always true because of our human way of deciding, “yes, that didn’t happen, they are a false prophet.” Prophecy is not set in stone. Not ALL verses that contain the term “false prophet” refer to events prophesied, most of them are referring to heretics preaching a false Gospel.
Yea, blame everything on Luther! Lutherans believe in "consubstantiation" which reflects the views of Irenaeus or Justin Martyr.
Some people may not realize this but the doctrine of the Eucharist was first given dogmatic expression in the Catholic Church at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215, when the Church formally adopted the doctrine of transubstantiation as its official teaching. This was confirmed by the Council of Trent, which also asserted that the Lord’s Supper was a propitiatory sacrifice for sin. These are the two primary and supremely important elements of the Church’s teaching on the Eucharist — transubstantiation and sacrifice. For the first 1200 years of the Church’s life there was no unanimity on the nature of the eucharist. (from http://www.the-highway.com/eucharist_Webster.html). We also learn that not every early church father agreed on the subject. Some believed and taught that the Eucharist was symbolic while some taught it was literal. From the above link:
At the same time, there was a continuing representation by many Fathers of the eucharistic elements as figures or symbols of the Lord’s body and blood, although they also believed the Lord was spiritually present in the sacrament. Pope Gelasius I (492-496A.D.), for example, believed that the bread and wine in substance at consecration did not cease to be bread and wine,11 a view shared by Eusebius, Theodoret, Serapion, Jerome, Athanasius, Ambrosiaster, Macanus of Egypt, and Eustathius of Antioch.12
However, the theological giant who provided the most comprehensive and influential defence of the symbolic interpretation of the Lord’s Supper was Augustine.13 He gave very clear instructions and principles for determining when a passage of Scripture should be interpreted literally and when figuratively. Passages of Scripture must always be interpreted in the light of the entire revelation of Scripture, he concluded, and he used John 6 as a specific example of a passage that should be interpreted figuratively.14
Augustine argued that the sacraments, including the eucharist, are signs and figures which represent or symbolize spiritual realities. He made a distinction between the physical, historical body of Christ and the sacramental presence, maintaining that Christ’s physical body could not literally be present in the sacrament of the eucharist because he is physically at the right hand of God in heaven, and will be there until he comes again. But Christ is spiritually with his people.15 Augustine viewed the eucharist in spiritual terms and he interpreted the true meaning of eating and drinking as being faith: ‘To believe on Him is to eat the living bread. He that believes eats; he is sated invisibly, because invisibly is he born again.’
Even more quotations from the early church fathers are provided at the link. I think it is more than obvious that the purpose of the Lord's Supper/Eucharist was to remember Christ's sacrifice for our sins and when we partake of the "elements" of this, we are reminded of His place as our redeemer and Savior. It is, after all, ONLY an observance for those who have already received Christ in faith - the eating of the bread and drinking of the wine is NOT what does the saving - ONLY faith is what saves us. Someone can eat a truckload of "consecrated hosts" and they would not be any closer to heaven if they didn't believe in Christ.
“I disagree”
Yes, I can see that you do...at least in part. Otherwise I’m having a bit of difficulty in see the point you’re making with the rest of your comments unless it’s perhaps an idea of universal salvation.
Maybe because it’s late or maybe I’m just not quick enough but I just don’t see where you’re going here.
Here’s an example of Protestant message. An excerpt,
the first words of a message to Debra Lowe.
Read the underlined, they speak about what’s coming...
1. The “awakening”, also known as the Great Warning. You
“and see who you really are” in everyone’s personal life
review during the Great Warning.
2. Second paragraph, Jesus states “we will be as one”, that
means one in belief, all the sheep gathered together believing the same. Alleluia
3. Long awaited, the “maturing” of the sons and daughters
of God. Translation: Protestants and Orthodox will accept
the fullness of revelation.
P.S. Sounds in the first sentences, like some people are praying for a Rapture, not the true time that is to soon happen, uniting our crosses with Christ in the Great Tribulation.
DEBRA LOWE
http://daughtersofz.typepad.com/
6/1/12
I hear My Church crying for My return, their hearts longing for My rule and My reign. The time where peace is the order of the day and love is true and felt. I hear My children crying to be lifted up in their Father’s arms, to know the safe haven of home. I hear My bride crying to be swept up and swept away. Yes, now the whole creation is in travail for the culmination of My promise. I hear and I Am attending to your cries. As you are coming to an end, you are stepping over into the new, a time that I have longed for, a day of restoration not of things, but of you. I have always been on a course to straighten out the crooked places in you. You will open your eyes from the clouds of distractions AND SEE WHO YOU REALLY ARE. This time all fear will be gone and some of you who have been hindered by the crooked place of fear will no longer be hemmed in. You will place your hand in Mine and trust that I know exactly how to accomplish even the most difficult task that I have called you to do. As you take the step the supply will be abundantly given. It will be a time of taking the five loaves and two fishes, multiplication at the prayers that are offered. Ask of me in that simple faith, I will hear that cry as well.
You will do as is written of My children, and WE WILL BE AS ONE,that is why before the words are formed in your mouth I will have sent the answer. THIS IS THE TIME THAT WE HAVE LONG AWAITED, THE MATURING OF THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD. Now comes the entrance of the true heirs of the Kingdom. Boldness to sweep the land that I have given to you, no longer ashamed to offer the Kingdom to all, the rich, the poor, the young, the old, male and female, the cry will be heard to every nation. Loud and strong as you join Me to snatch souls from hell’s fire. You just know that the time is close, that it is high time to wake from the slumber. Cry loud, the night is far spent, the day is at hand. Go, My messengers, go My witnesses, I have set you free to spread and proclaim. You must go as one that is on fire, you must go as one that blows with the force of the wind...
The only reason we are preaching that Jesus' sacrifice was the propitiation for our sin (complete satisfactory payment) is because that is what Scripture says. If it didn't say it, we would not be able to quote you all the times it does - and we have done so numerous times. For a person to say that their sins are paid for is far from boasting simply because we know it is not what we have done to deserve it but by God's grace. And that IS what a saint is - one who is sanctified, set apart - and all those who are in Christ are justified. It isn't Scripture's fault that some religions misuse the term.
oops, sorry, I left out a word.
1. The “awakening”, also known as the Great Warning. You
WILL “and see who you really are” in everyone’s personal life
review during the Great Warning.
Go back and read all of the book of James. That is the only way to understand the context of that one sentence so many people pull out as if it was their "trump" card. Faith is NOT the free gift God gave us, in fact, the gift is eternal life which God gives us by His grace and we receive it by faith. Any time someone adds ANY kind of works to the equation it ceases to be grace and becomes a debt owed because of work. Romans 11:6 very clearly states that if it is by grace then it cannot be by works because grace would not be grace. The opposite is true, too, if we are saved by our works, then it cannot be by grace because work would not be work.
We should take ALL of Scripture into account when we want to understand specific verses. Snippet hunting is lousy hermeneutics.
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