Posted on 04/19/2012 11:58:25 AM PDT by NYer
I saw an advance copy of a survey by William J. Byron and Charles Zech, which will appear in the April 30th edition of “America” magazine.
It was conducted at the request of David O’Connell, the bishop of Trenton, and its focus was very simple: it endeavored to discover why Catholics have left the church. No one denies that a rather substantive number of Catholics have taken their leave during the past 20 years, and Byron and Zech wanted to find out why. They did so in the most direct way possible and asked those who had quit.
The answers they got were, in many ways, predictable. Lots of people cited the church’s teachings on divorce and re-marriage, gay marriage, contraception, and the ordination of women. These matters, of course, have been exhaustively discussed in the years following Vatican II, and I’d be willing to bet that anyone, even those vaguely connected to the Church, could rehearse the arguments on both sides of those issues. But there just isn’t a lot that the church can do about them. No bishop or pastor could make a policy adjustment and announce that divorced and re-married people can receive communion or that a gay couple can come to the altar to be married or a woman present herself for ordination.
What struck me about the survey, however, was that many of the issues that led people to leave the church are indeed matters that can be addressed. Many of the respondents commented that they left because of “bad customer relations.” One woman said that she felt “undervalued by the church” and found “no mentors.” Many more said that their pastors were “arrogant, distant, aloof, and insensitive,” and still others said that their experiences over the phone with parish staffers were distinctly negative. Now I fully understand that parish priests and lay ministers are on the front lines and hence are the ones who often have to say “no” when a parishioner asks for something that just can’t be granted. Sometimes the recipient of that “no” can all too facilely accuse the one who says it as arrogant or indifferent. Nevertheless, the survey can and should be a wake-up call to church leaders—both clerical and non-clerical—that simple kindness, compassion, and attention go a rather long way. I distinctly remember the advice that my first pastor—a wonderful and pastorally skillful priest—gave to the parish secretary: “for many people, you are the first contact they have with the Catholic Church; you exercise, therefore, an indispensable ministry.” One respondent to the survey observed that whenever he asked a priest about a controversial issue, he “got rules, and not an invitation to sit down and talk.” Unfair? Perhaps. But every priest, even when ultimately he has to say “no,” can do so in the context of a relationship predicated upon love and respect.
A second major concern that can and should be addressed is that of bad preaching. Again and again, people said that they left the church because homilies were “boring, irrelevant, poorly prepared,” or “delivered in an impenetrable accent.” Again, speaking as someone who is called upon to give sermons all the time, I realize how terribly difficult it is to preach, how it involves skill in public speaking, attention to the culture, expertise in biblical interpretation, and sensitivity to the needs and interests of an incredibly diverse audience. That said, homilists can make a great leap forward by being attentive to one fact: sermons become boring in the measure that they don’t propose something like answers to real questions. All of the biblical exegesis and oratorical skill in the world will be met with a massive “so what?” if the preacher has not endeavored to correlate the “answers” he provides with the “questions” that beguile the hearts of the people to whom he speaks. Practically every Gospel involves an encounter between Jesus and a person—Peter, Mary Magdalene, Nicodemus, Zacchaeus, etc.—who is questioning, wondering, suffering, or seeking. An interesting homily identifies that longing and demonstrates, concretely, how Jesus fulfills it. When the homily both reminds people how thirsty they are and provides water to quench the thirst, people will listen.
A third eminently correctable problem is one that I will admit I had never thought about before reading this survey. Many of the respondents commented that, after they left the church, no one from the parish contacted them or reached out to them in any way. Now again, I can anticipate and fully understand the objections from pastoral people: many Catholic parishes are huge—upwards of three or four thousand families—and staffs are small. Yet, just as major corporations, serving millions of people, attend carefully to lost customers, so Catholic parishes should prioritize an outreach to those who have drifted (or stormed) away. A phone call, a note, an e-mail, a pastoral visit—anything that would say, “We’ve noticed you’re not coming to Mass anymore. Can we help? Can you tell us what, if anything, we’ve done wrong? We’d love to see you back with us.”
The problem of Catholics leaving the church is, obviously, serious and complex, and anyone who would suggest an easy solution is naïve. However, having listened to a representative sample of those who have left, parishes, priests, and church administrators might take some relatively simple and direct steps that would go a long way toward ameliorating the situation.
A little less broad brush painting of all non-Catholics would be nice, as well.
1John1 :8 IF WE( Christians) claim to be Without Sin, WE DECEIVE ourselves and the TRUTH IS NOT in US. 9 IF WE CONFESS Our SINS, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
10 If We claim We have Not sinned, We make Him out to be a Liar and his word is Not In Us.”
I apologize for speaking imprecisely. I was referring to the iconoclasts, not modern non-Catholics.
Who is claiming to be without sin?
The book of common prayer is not from YHWH; the Bible is.
Why do all Christ-hating catholic bigots always direct people away from God’s word?
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That sure looks like PROJECTION!
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Liturgy is man’s replacement for God’s commandments.
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Correction: GOD gave the world Leonardo and Michaelangelo. They'd still be known as great painters no matter what they painted. The RCC isn't responsible for their talent and is not the only venue available for the expression of their talent.
John is writing about individual sin. We as Christians have to confess our sins to Christ. Not once saved always saved. You can see my original post.
We are not Robots. It is relationship with God. Two way street. Not everything is done and we walk in between the raindrops.
When we walk past the Pearly Gates of Heaven and we know for sure that we are at least 5 feet past then we are truly saved. Then we never will be tempted again by the enemy. But in the mean time we are still on earth. The enemy will still tempt us.
Did Jesus or Paul lie then?
You do realize that the SAME Holy Spirit inspired the writers of those Psalms, right? Additionally, the sacrifice of lambs and bulls and goats and other various "large and malodorous animals" were done in obedience to Almighty God. The purpose of such was to be a spiritual object lesson that only by the shedding of blood is there remission of sins. The animals that were killed were done so to drive home the point that only by death can sins be paid for. In the time before Christ came, the observance of these offerings done for the people by the High Priest was the ONLY way for anyone to be made righteous. By faith in this expiatory sacrifice and obeying the commandments as well as the hundreds of other laws and ordinances was the way God saw fit for man to relate to Him. After Christ Jesus came and offered His blood and life upon the cross as the propitiation for the sins of the world, God now has man relate to Him by grace through faith. He STILL wants us to live holy and obedient lives because He loves us and knows what is best for us. But, we are saved by faith and not by our works just as the Old Testament saints were also saved because of their faith. Read Hebrews 11 for a wonderful description of the kind of faith they had.
There is now no more need for sacrifices - bloody or unbloody - because Christ made the final and full payment for sin. He died ONCE for all. All those who would come to Him through faith are granted reconciliation with God and are the redeemed, made righteous by Christ. It is NOT by works of righteousness that we do that saves us but by His mercy and grace alone. The righteousness of Christ is credited to our account and when God looks at us, He sees Christ's righteousness covering us.
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. (Philippians 3:9)
We must be as righteous as God is - be ye holy as HE is holy - in order to dwell with him for eternity. With man this is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible. We have the righteousness of God through faith in Christ.
Sadly that's not even enough to get some people to leave.
FWIW, that was an unknown in my day. I think most of those on this forum who left the RCC left it before that blew wide open.
This also occurs with those who ultimately leave false religions and cults. Once they begin reading the scriptures themselves...and study what they are really saying...in time things just don't line up, and that's because God honors those who truly are 'seeking the truth', rather than hunting for what they want His word to say....Big Difference.
False doctrines along with overwhelming mountains of information are frequently used to divert the converts from the "simple truth' of the gosepl message, and the Centrality of Christ readily available in the Scriptures.
The average person is not going to take on checking or studying what they're taught....they simple accept what the instructors, teachers etc. are saying...perhaps with just a glimpse in the scriptures to see if what they are saying "is in there" (The Bible), and that suffices them.....or they ask others on that same journey to confirm FOR them. But they're generally not seeking the truth...and why they get caught in the cycle of constantly learning but never grasping the truth.
That kind of reasoning contradicts Scripture because it makes our salvation dependent on our own works righteousness and we are NOT saved by our own righteousness but by the righteousness of Christ FOR us. We are found IN HIM, not having our own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ the righteousness of God by faith. (Philippians 3:9)
Not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us. (Titus 2:5)
Those who have received Christ KNOW we are sinners and deserve hell but we also know that Christ died for us so that we can be redeemed. He shed his precious blood as payment for those sins - for ALL sin - and to think that somehow we must add to that perfect sacrifice our goodness in order to be saved is to reject the grace of God. Will we still have a problem with sin in our lives after we have trusted in Christ? Yes, but we know that we can confess our sins and God is faithful and will forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The Holy SPirit is within us convicting us of sin and enabling us to live as God wants us to - in victory. We are NOT saved because we are good, we are saved because God first loved us. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We are not condemned if we have believed on Him. Only HIS blood cleanses us from sin. Only HIS blood pays for sin. I do not set aside the grace of God, if righteousness comes by obeying the law, Christ died for no reason. (Galatians 2:21) Please understand this.
BTW...cute pics.
So if we neglect to confess our sin to Him who "knew all men" and to whom "nothing is hidden" then we would loose our salvation?
"When we walk past the Pearly Gates of Heaven and we know for sure that we are at least 5 feet past then we are truly saved..."
I understand that line of thinking johngrace but seeing the kingdom of God through the eyes of a child does not mean if I fail to list everything I do that is wrong He will no longer be my Father and I will no longer be His child.What earthly human father would do such a thing? Is their love and acceptance stronger than God's?
This is a guarantee.... 2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather brethren,give dilligence to make your calling and election sure,for if ye do these things ye shall never fall"
*IF* you "make your calling and election sure" ("sure" to whom? God who knows all things?)"ye shall NEVER FALL"
Oh dear bb,I am undone!
"What is thy servant, that thou shouldest look upon such a dead dog as I am?"
"Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord"
"I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."
"make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall"
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
I don’t think we should be critical of sincere expressions of worship. There is a tendency among Catholics to move toward more and more rigid formularies in their religion—adopting a whole new language for instance—and it is my considered opinion that in trying to be perfect to some kind of letter, they are building barriers to the spirit of the law and distancing themselves from the blessed simplicity of a living relationship with Jesus.
People at my church worship in a way that is very much like dancing if it is not dancing itself. It is so beautiful to see. No one who sees it can doubt its purity and sincerity. I wish I could do the same with the same kind of grace. Years of rigidly following rules has made that difficult.
Do me a favor if you answer this reply: don’t nitpick but deal with the basic issue.
We can know now.
Galatians 2:20-21 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
When God sees me IN CHRIST, then He sees me crucified IN CHRIST, and I am clothed in Christ's righteousness, which is the righteousness God sees when He looks at me. He doesn't see my own righteousness, which can never meet His standards.
I died IN Christ. I live IN CHRIST. I am seated in the heavenlies NOW IN CHRIST.
Sin is only removed by forgiveness, and forgiveness by its very nature is a gift. It cannot be earned. No amount of good works can procure salvation. There is no good outweighing the bad. There is no accounting of our deeds or motivations because we already stand condemned by the fact that we sinned ONCE. Even if all we ever did was sin once, that would be enough to condemn us, just as Adam sinned ONCE and died.
Works cannot and do not save. They never have and they never will.
It is completely by God's mercy and grace and we can know for sure now because God who cannot lie said that if we believe in Jesus, our faith is counted to us as righteousness.
Romans 4:1-8 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; 8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
And where there is forgiveness, there is no more sin to account for or try to work off.
Hebrews 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
If you're forgiven, there's nothing left to work off. If there's something to work off, then you haven't been forgiven.
All due respect. You are so wrong.
This is addressed to Christians. This is without a doubt about individual sins.
He is addresses it in the letter for a reason. He has to definitely point it out. This why it is in scripture. To minimize it is wrong.
James 5
The Prayer of Faith
13" Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have SINNED, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore CONFESS Your SINS to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective."
He is pointing out what is most important at times. How you can not see that is amazing. Or just minimize it.
Jesus open up all our eyes on what we all need from thee!
AMEN!!
See post 159. You are just wrong. I can ask him to help yes and he will but we have to respond. We are not robots. Period.
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