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Pope issues rare, forceful correction to dissident priests in Holy Week liturgy
Life Site News ^ | April 5, 2012 | HILARY WHITE

Posted on 04/09/2012 6:08:04 AM PDT by NYer

VATICAN CITY, April 5, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) – In an extremely rare move, Pope Benedict XVI today issued a forcefully worded correction of a group of Austrian priests who last year issued a public letter calling on their fellow clergy to disobey Catholic teaching in key areas.

“Recently a group of priests from a European country issued a summons to disobedience, and at the same time gave concrete examples of the forms this disobedience might take, even to the point of disregarding definitive decisions of the Church’s Magisterium, such as the question of women’s ordination,” the pope said.

Speaking at the Holy Thursday Mass at St. Peter’s Basilica today, one of the most solemn occasions of the Catholic Church’s liturgical year, Pope Benedict asked, “Is disobedience a path of renewal for the Church?”

Although he did not name the country, it is clear the pope was referring to a public letter the priests, who called themselves the Austrian Priests’ Initiative, issued in June 2011 demanding “reform” on priestly celibacy, the reservation of the priesthood to men and the reception of Holy Communion by divorced and remarried Catholics. Titled “A Call to Disobedience,” the letter accused the Catholic Church of injustice and violations of human rights, and announced that the signatories intended to continue giving Communion to “members of other Christian Churches and, in certain cases, Catholics who have left the Church”.

“We would like to believe” the pope said, “that the authors of this summons are motivated by concern for the Church.

“But is disobedience really a way to do this? Do we sense here anything of that configuration to Christ which is the precondition for true renewal, or do we merely sense a desperate push to do something to change the Church in accordance with one’s own preferences and ideas?”

Posing the rhetorical question, “Surely Christ himself corrected human traditions which threatened to stifle the word and the will of God?” the pope said that the authority of Christ, as the Son of God, was unique, and something that no human priest can claim.

“Indeed he did [correct human traditions], so as to rekindle obedience to the true will of God, to his ever enduring word. His concern was for true obedience, as opposed to human caprice,” Benedict said.

The choice of the Holy Thursday liturgy, seen in the Catholic Church as the Mass of the priesthood, to address the letter indicates the depth of Benedict’s concern. Catholics believe that the priesthood and the Mass itself were inaugurated by Christ on Thursday night before his death the next day on the cross. The priesthood and the nature of the Church are the main focus of the liturgy for the day, a day that has recently also become the locus of annual protests by anti-Catholic groups agitating for women’s ordination, among other changes to Catholic teaching.

Benedict continued, saying Christ “lived out his task with obedience and humility all the way to the Cross, and so gave credibility to his mission. Not my will, but thine be done: these words reveal to us the Son, in his humility and his divinity, and they show us the true path.”

The situation in Austria remains unresolved, with the group of 300-400 priests having issued a statement last October refusing to recant their letter, titled “A Call to Disobedience”. “Disobeying certain valid and strict church rulings and laws has for years been part of our life and work as priests,” they said.

Since the group issued its demands, local Catholic authorities have engaged in “discussions” with them. A spokesman for the archdiocese of Vienna said, “There has been no discussion of sanctions, no ultimatum, no talk of punishment.” The Cardinal Archbishop of Vienna, Christoph Schonborn, said he wanted to discuss the needs of local Catholics with the group.

It is clear, however, that the lack of a prompt resolution to the situation is unacceptable to the Pope, who said today, “All our preaching must measure itself against the saying of Jesus Christ: ‘My teaching is not mine’. We preach not private theories and opinions, but the faith of the Church, whose servants we are.”

In answer to the position of the Austrian priests, Benedict highlighted the “religious illiteracy” that has become common in the formerly Christian western world, even within the Church.

“The foundations of faith, which at one time every child knew, are now known less and less. But if we are to live and love our faith, if we are to love God and to hear him aright, we need to know what God has said to us – our minds and hearts must be touched by his word,” he said.

The “hermeneutic of continuity” – the interpretation of Catholic teaching in the light of the Church’s traditional understanding of scripture – has been a major theme of Benedict’s papacy. He has struggled to make clear that the Second Vatican Council, cited by the Austrian group as the source of their disobedience, did not mandate any change or reversals in Catholic dogma, doctrine or discipline.

Again today, Benedict revisited this theme, answering the priests’ claim, saying that the texts of the Second Vatican Council and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “are essential tools which serve as an authentic guide to what the Church believes on the basis of God’s word”.

Benedict has had his hands full with the scandal-plagued Austrian Catholic Church. In 2009, a rebellion of the nation’s Catholic bishops made it impossible for him to appoint his choice for the diocese of Linz, a see that has been the centre of decades of liturgical abuse as well as more recently of several high-profile sex abuse cases.

See Follow up article:
Vatican letter demands action on Austrian dissident priests’ group the day after Papal blast


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: catholicchurch; catholics; fifthcolumnists; religion
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1 posted on 04/09/2012 6:08:11 AM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Apologies for the delayed posting of this article. As with you, Holy Week was quite a busy one.


2 posted on 04/09/2012 6:09:42 AM PDT by NYer (He who hides in his heart the remembrance of wrongs is like a man who feeds a snake on his chest. St)
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To: NYer

Jesus tried to reform the church in His day of non-scriptural teachings and was killed for His efforts. Perhaps these reformers will have better luck.


3 posted on 04/09/2012 6:24:43 AM PDT by BipolarBob (If I had a son who jacked jewelry and dealt drugs, he would've looked like Trayvon.)
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To: NYer
a see that has been the centre of decades of liturgical abuse as well as more recently of several high-profile sex abuse cases.

Funny how the two seem to go hand-in-hand . . .

4 posted on 04/09/2012 6:33:28 AM PDT by maryz
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To: NYer

Same here with me, now I am very tired.


5 posted on 04/09/2012 6:56:39 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: NYer

Watched last night, the replaying of the Easter Sunday mass on EWTN. It was beautiful. Saw the Gospel of John read by both a Western and Eastern Catholic rites priests. One in Latin, one in Greek as a symbol of the different branches of the Catholic family tree.

Saw the Pope he sure looks very tired.


6 posted on 04/09/2012 7:01:22 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: NYer

Watched last night, the replaying of the Easter Sunday mass on EWTN. It was beautiful. Saw the Gospel of John read by both a Western and Eastern Catholic rites priests. One in Latin, one in Greek as a symbol of the different branches of the Catholic family tree.

Saw the Pope he sure looks very tired.


7 posted on 04/09/2012 7:01:22 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: BipolarBob

-—Jesus tried to reform the church in His day of non-scriptural teachings and was killed for His efforts. Perhaps these reformers will have better luck.——

Thank you for advertising the limitations of Luther’s nonbiblical doctrine of “the Bible alone.” Sometimes human traditions produce surprising results.

“For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” —Jesus


8 posted on 04/09/2012 7:09:35 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: Biggirl

My Pastor, Fr. Richard Mehm, was serving Communion at the Vatican Mass!


9 posted on 04/09/2012 7:23:11 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: NYer

Jimmy Carter will be adding Pope Benedict XVI to his list of popes who Carter thinks are like Ayatollah Khomeini!

Pope Benedict will be in the exalted company of Blessed Pope John Paul II!


10 posted on 04/09/2012 8:43:21 AM PDT by Gumdrop
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To: Biggirl

Me too!


11 posted on 04/09/2012 9:20:55 AM PDT by NYer (He who hides in his heart the remembrance of wrongs is like a man who feeds a snake on his chest. St)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

It is still not a commandment from Jesus. Your church makes it a commandment.
“And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws.” Daniel 7:25


12 posted on 04/09/2012 9:23:44 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Life's too short to fish with a dead cricket.)
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To: BipolarBob

It’s not a Church “commandment,” but a Church discipline which is consonant with Jesus’ teaching, and which the Church of Christ has the authority to require of Her priests (”If he will not listen to the church...”), the opinions of men notwithstanding.

FYI, there are some married priests in the Latin Rite, and married priests are common in other Catholic Rites.

My authority is Christ’s Church. Yours is Martin Luther.


13 posted on 04/09/2012 9:49:02 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

“...there are some married priests in the Latin Rite, and married priests are common in other Catholic Rites.”

It doesn’t matter to some. That info has been posted on FR on every celibacy thread for 10+ years. There are many that are just not interested. Same thing with the liberal Catholics hating the discipline and conservative Catholics thinking it is valuable. Just doesn’t matter.

Freegards


15 posted on 04/09/2012 10:58:51 AM PDT by Ransomed
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To: Ransomed

Well, we can tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may.


16 posted on 04/09/2012 11:51:04 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: BipolarBob

>> “And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws.” Daniel 7:25 <<

.
That’s the poope all right.


17 posted on 04/09/2012 12:54:51 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; BipolarBob

>> “Sometimes human traditions produce surprising results.” <<

.
But always they are contrary to the stated will of YHWH.
.


18 posted on 04/09/2012 12:57:31 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor
"But always they are contrary to the stated will of YHWH."

Always? Any proof?

19 posted on 04/09/2012 1:53:08 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: Natural Law

.
>> “Always? Any proof?” <<

.
Matthew 15:

[7] Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
.


20 posted on 04/09/2012 2:43:52 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor
"Matthew 15:"

Thank you, I see your mistake. You assumed that "commandments of men" is the same thing as Apostolic Tradition. It clearly is not. It is the Revealed Word of God every bit as much as is Sacred Scripture.

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." - 2 Thessalonians 2:15

21 posted on 04/09/2012 3:03:39 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: NYer
The Pope HAS to rein in the Austrian dissident priests...it's HIS OWN people. If he can't discipline HIS OWN, how can he deal with other dissidents throughout the Catholic world?
22 posted on 04/09/2012 3:08:29 PM PDT by cloudmountain
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To: Natural Law

>> “You assumed that “commandments of men” is the same thing as Apostolic Tradition.” <<

.
There is no “apostolic tradition.” The apostles were godly men that obeyed their Lord, and avoided creating any tradition but for the following of the instructions that they wrote down in the Gospels.

Unfortunately, when John died, there were no more apostles to keep the people on the straight track; their mission was complete.
.


23 posted on 04/09/2012 3:19:08 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: Natural Law; A.A. Cunningham
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." - 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Paul and the Apostles are dead. I did not live in their lifetime. I cannot hear it from their mouth. So I must go by their "letter" which is conveniently located in the Bible.

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39

Hear I am told to look to the scriptures. That sorta makes that YOPIO cereal pic look sort of contrary to the Word of God.

24 posted on 04/09/2012 3:45:00 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Life's too short to fish with a dead cricket.)
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To: NYer
The situation in Austria remains unresolved, with the group of 300-400 priests having issued a statement last October refusing to recant their letter, titled “A Call to Disobedience”. “Disobeying certain valid and strict church rulings and laws has for years been part of our life and work as priests,” they said.

Well that goes a long way toward explaining the sorry state of the Church in Europe.

25 posted on 04/09/2012 3:55:23 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: editor-surveyor
"The apostles were godly men that obeyed their Lord, and avoided creating any tradition but for the following of the instructions that they wrote down in the Gospels."

That is a fascinating account, but I am not familiar with it. Since it is not Scriptural you are going to have to tell me where you learned it.

I am also curious to know how it is you believe that the Apostles taught the "Good News" between receiving their commission and the writing of the Scriptures. There were 13 Apostles(the original 11 plus St. Matthias and St. Paul). All were commanded to got forth and preach the Gospel to all nations, but we only have Scripture from five of them.

26 posted on 04/09/2012 4:01:03 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: editor-surveyor

Martin Luther was a man. His doctrines are human.


27 posted on 04/09/2012 4:13:46 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

Your church and adherents have a great disdain for Martin Luther. Other than the nail marks to a church door, what are your grievances against him? He tried to correct wrongs in the church. He read the Bible. He prayed. The contradictions were self evident. The sale of indulgences were the result of avarice not soul saving. He was sad that the Church he loved had strayed so far from its purpose.


28 posted on 04/09/2012 4:30:01 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Life's too short to fish with a dead cricket.)
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To: BipolarBob
"Hear I am told to look to the scriptures."

Unfortunately, you have chosen a flawed translation and presented an incomplete statement. If you read the next several versus and check the Greek (39 Ἐραυνᾶτε τὰς γραφάς, ὅτι ὑμεῖς δοκεῖτε ἐν αὐταῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον ἔχειν· καὶ ἐκεῖναί εἰσιν αἱ μαρτυροῦσαι περὶ ἐμοῦ) you will see that Jesus is actually admonishing the Jews for citing Scripture rather than accepting His teachings.

29 posted on 04/09/2012 4:37:07 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: BipolarBob

1) Martin Luther was not infallible.

2) His doctrine of “the Bible alone,” as the sole rule of faith, isn’t in the Bible.

Therefore, Protestantism has no logical basis.

This is why Catholics aren’t interested in Protestantism.

We are interested in an infallible teaching Authority, “the pillar and foundation of truth,” the Church of Christ, the Catholic Church.


30 posted on 04/09/2012 4:45:25 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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To: Natural Law
If you read the next several versus and check the Greek (39 Ἐραυνᾶτε τὰς γραφάς, ὅτι ὑμεῖς δοκεῖτε ἐν αὐταῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον ἔχειν· καὶ ἐκεῖναί εἰσιν αἱ μαρτυροῦσαι περὶ ἐμοῦ) you will see that Jesus is actually admonishing the Jews for citing Scripture rather than accepting His teachings.

Wow!Do you have that wrong. The Jews prided themselves for being faithful to Moses and his writings. Jesus points out how they were in fact unfaithful to Moses and his writings because Moses foretold of Jesus coming.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Jesus and Scriptures were never in contradiction.

31 posted on 04/09/2012 4:51:44 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Life's too short to fish with a dead cricket.)
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To: BipolarBob
"Wow!Do you have that wrong."

I'm afraid we are going to have to disagree. Jesus was chiding the Jews for not seeing Him in the Scriptures, yet professing an early version of Sola Scriptura. It establishes that Scripture, wrongly interpreted, is not profitable.

32 posted on 04/09/2012 5:02:13 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
"We are interested in an infallible teaching Authority, “the pillar and foundation of truth,” the Church of Christ, the Catholic Church."

More circular reasoning. Sidestepped the valid points in my post. Arrogance on a scale foreign to most Christians. How can a church correct errors when they claim infallibility? They cannot.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup (Jer. 51.7) in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

33 posted on 04/09/2012 5:04:14 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Life's too short to fish with a dead cricket.)
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To: Natural Law
"Jesus was chiding the Jews for not seeing Him in the Scriptures," Yes he was. But that's NOT what you said before.

"you will see that Jesus is actually admonishing the Jews for citing Scripture rather than accepting His teachings."

Jesus did not admonish the Jews for citing scripture. Only word twisting with a bias would say that is what Jesus said. There is nothing wrong with citing scripture as you would have the gullible believe. Jesus beat back the devil with a "It is written" response.

34 posted on 04/09/2012 5:11:26 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Life's too short to fish with a dead cricket.)
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To: BipolarBob
"Sidestepped the valid points in my post."

"You will tell me that infallibility is too great a prerogative to be conferred on man. I answer: has not God, in former times, clothed his Apostles with power far more exalted? They were endowed with gifts of working miracles, of prophecy, and inspiration; they were the mouthpiece communicating God's revelation, of which Popes are merely the custodian. If God could make man the organ of his revealed Word, is it impossible for Him to make man its infallible guardian and interpreter? For, surely, greater is the Apostle who gives us the inspired Word than the Pope who preserves it from error."

"Let us see, sir, whether an infallible Bible is sufficient for you. Either you are infallibly certain that your interpretation of the Bible is correct, or you are not."

"If you are infallibly certain, then you assert for yourself, and of course for every reader of Scripture, a personal infallibility which you deny the Pope, and which we claim only for him. You make every man his own Pope."

"If you are not infallibly certain that you understand the true meaning of the whole Bible..., then I ask, of what use to you is the objective infallibility of the Bible without an infallible interpreter?"

- Cardinal Gibbons "The Faith of our Fathers," 1917

35 posted on 04/09/2012 5:13:55 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: BipolarBob; St_Thomas_Aquinas
Other than the nail marks to a church door, what are your grievances against him?

That is not a grievance at all. His 90 (or whatever the number) theses were all questions worth discussing and posting a proposal for a debate on the doors of a church was accepted practice at the time.

The grievance against Luther is that he promulgated unbiblical theological fantasies of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, tossed from the Old Testament books he found inconvenient for himself, desecrated monasteries, started a new iconoclasm, and lead millions away from Christ. Since Mohammed, there was no greater enemy of Christ than Martin Luther.

36 posted on 04/09/2012 5:23:33 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Natural Law
Is that THIS Cardinal Gibbons?

"The Catholic Cardinal Gibbons, in Faith of Our Fathers, pg. 111, said, "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we (The Roman Catholic Church) never sanctify."

Jesus, on His life here on earth, kept the Sabbath. The Jews are the chosen ones because they are one of the few (remnant) that would still be observant in the last days. Remember what Jesus said? "IF ye love me, keep My commandments".

37 posted on 04/09/2012 5:27:34 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Life's too short to fish with a dead cricket.)
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To: BipolarBob
"Is that THIS Cardinal Gibbons?"

He is the very same James Cardinal Gibbons.

It is always very revealing and somewhat saddening when some Protestants quote Catholic Clergy and authors as though they had actually read the works themselves. The quotes are always out of context and errors are repeated from website to website and post to post. It shows a contempt, or at least a disregard, for the truth, which as the Catechism states, is God who is truth itself.

The first problem with your citation is that the quote is not on page 111, it is actually on page 97 (a dead giveaway as to the source of your material). The second is the lack of context. Below is an extended excerpt of the entire page 97 from Faith of our Fathers:

Would it not be extremely hazardous to make a long voyage in a ship in which the officers and crew are fiercely contending among themselves about the manner of explaining the compass and of steering their course? How much more dangerous is it to trust to contending captains in the journey to heaven! Nothing short of an infallible authority should satisfy you when it is a question of steering your course to eternity. On this vital point there should be no conflict of opinion among those that guide you. There should be no conjecture. But there must be always someone at the helm whose voice gives assurance amid the fiercest storms that all is well.

Third—A rule of faith, or a competent guide to heaven, must be able to instruct in all the truths necessary for salvation. Now the Scriptures alone do not contain all the truths which a Christian is bound to believe, nor do they explicitly enjoin all the duties which he is obliged to practice. Not to mention other examples, is not every Christian obliged to sanctify Sunday and to abstain on that day from unnecessary servile work? Is not the observance of this law among the most prominent of our sacred duties? But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify. The Catholic Church correctly teaches that our Lord and His Apostles inculcated certain important duties of religion which are not recorded by the inspired writers.150 For instance, most Christians pray to the Holy Ghost, a practice which is nowhere found in the Bible.

We must, therefore, conclude that the Scriptures alone cannot be a sufficient guide and rule of faith because they cannot, at any time, be within the reach of every inquirer; because they are not of themselves clear and intelligible even in matters of the highest importance, and because they do not contain all the truths necessary for salvation.

38 posted on 04/09/2012 5:54:07 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: Natural Law
Whenever I have these discussions with Catholics, it usually ends with an overwhelming flurry of writings or non-Biblical readings. The one pervasive common feature is the almost horrifying reaction to Sola Scriptura as if it were the Devils Brew. Jesus spoke to a largely unlearned group. He spoke simply. He spoke in parables. He didn't tell the people that salvation was out of their grasp because it's just too hard! No He did not. Any church, group or person that declares the Bible is insufficient to find salvation is trying either to make a dollar or vying for some influence over people. The Truth shall set you free and not some self declared infallible institution that once presided over inquisitions.
39 posted on 04/09/2012 6:31:44 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Life's too short to fish with a dead cricket.)
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To: Natural Law

Excellent post.


40 posted on 04/09/2012 6:38:22 PM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore (If Obama were twice as smart as he is, he would be a wit)
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To: BipolarBob

What a brilliantly ignorant statement.


41 posted on 04/09/2012 6:55:25 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (We kneel to no prince but the Prince of Peace)
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To: Natural Law

It is unlike your words, completely from scripture. Most of it is found in the Acts.

Mathias was artificially called an apostle, but appointment of apostles was strictly the job of Christ, and he appointed Paul. Mathias never fulfilled men’s hopes.

.
>> “I am also curious to know how it is you believe that the Apostles taught the “Good News” between receiving their commission and the writing of the Scriptures” <<

.
What is there to be curious about? Its all written down in the Acts and the epistles. There is nothing else to know. If there were, one of them would have recorded it. Most of the filling in was done by Luke, who must have been the world’s best listener.

>> “All were commanded to got forth and preach the Gospel to all nations, but we only have Scripture from five of them.” <<

.
A rather cocky assumption. Have you considered the possibility that some of the apostles really did go forth into all the world? That their writing may be in the eastern world? That it may yet be found?
.


42 posted on 04/09/2012 7:02:11 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

>> “Martin Luther was a man. His doctrines are human.” <<

.
‘His’ doctrines are from scripture, except for the junk that he retained from the Roman ‘church.’
.


43 posted on 04/09/2012 7:05:03 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: BipolarBob
Whenever I have these discussions with Catholics, it usually ends with an overwhelming flurry of writings or non-Biblical readings.

Dearie me. This book larnin' is highly overrated.

The one pervasive common feature is the almost horrifying reaction to Sola Scriptura as if it were the Devils Brew.

The entire NT depicts the establishment of the teaching church. Sola Scriptura is not permitted. Only the teachings of the Apostles and disciples (and the Church)are.

Jesus spoke to a largely unlearned group.

Just like today, a whole bunch of them do not understand.

He spoke in parables. He didn't tell the people that salvation was out of their grasp because it's just too hard! No He did not. Any church, group or person that declares the Bible is insufficient to find salvation is trying either to make a dollar or vying for some influence over people.

What Bible did Jesus teach out of? What Bible did any of the Apostles teach out of?

The Truth shall set you free and not some self declared infallible institution that once presided over inquisitions.

The Word shall set you free, and not any self declared interpreter of the word of God who gets his doctrines from the image in the mirror each morning.

44 posted on 04/09/2012 7:06:57 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; BipolarBob

>> “The entire NT depicts the establishment of the teaching church. Sola Scriptura is not permitted. Only the teachings of the Apostles and disciples (and the Church)are.” <<

.
LOL!

Matthew 15:

[3] But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4] For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
[5] But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
[6] And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
[7] Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

.
Christ denounced all traditions, and demanded obedience to the written commandments. We must emulate him, ans reject the traditions of Satan taught by the catholic ‘church.’
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>> “What Bible did Jesus teach out of? What Bible did any of the Apostles teach out of?” <<

.
The Hebrew scriptures of course. They told all that needed to be said to find Christ.
.


45 posted on 04/09/2012 7:18:34 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor
Christ denounced all traditions, and demanded obedience to the written commandments. We must emulate him, ans reject the traditions of Satan taught by the catholic ‘church.’

Jesus chided the Jews for preferring their interpretation of Scripture over Him.

Since the Catholic Church teaches no tradition of satan, we're good. However by your own words do you reject Christ. You also reject the many injunctions of Paul to listen to him and the Church teachers. How do you reconcile that?

John 5: 33“You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light. 36“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently studyc the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 41“I do not accept praise from men, 42but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God? 45“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

The Jews had only Scripture, as do the self-interpreters of today.

>> “What Bible did Jesus teach out of? What Bible did any of the Apostles teach out of?” <<

. The Hebrew scriptures of course. They told all that needed to be said to find Christ.

Yup. That's why the nation of Israel are all Christian.

46 posted on 04/09/2012 7:29:48 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: BipolarBob
”Whenever I have these discussions with Catholics, it usually ends with an overwhelming flurry of writings or non-Biblical readings.

When anyone begins a commentary on Scripture, doctrine or dogma they must diverge from actual Scripture and begin to present their own thoughts and those of others. If all you want is an exchange of Scripture verses or a Protestant echo chamber you are in the wrong forum.

The one pervasive common feature is the almost horrifying reaction to Sola Scriptura as if it were the Devils Brew.

There is a pervasive Protestant myth expressed in these threads that Scripture and Tradition are mutually exclusive, and that Catholics, having accepted Tradition have entirely forsaken Scripture. The Church teaches; "CCC133 - The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful... to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ."

Jesus spoke to a largely unlearned group. He spoke simply. He spoke in parables. He didn't tell the people that salvation was out of their grasp because it's just too hard!

Why do so many believe that illiterate means stupid and that anyone with the ability to Google a subject is somehow more intelligent? The peoples of the first century spent a lot more time in actual prayer, worship and contemplation than all but a few in this century. They also had a very solid foundation in Scripture and Rabbinic tradition derived from their culture. Nuance, subtlety, and idiomatic context were not foreign to them.

Any church, group or person that declares the Bible is insufficient to find salvation is trying either to make a dollar or vying for some influence over people.”

Conversely, Catholics see anyone attempting to restrict the Word of God to a dead letter or legal document has a completely different agenda than the Truth.

The Truth shall set you free and not some self declared infallible institution that once presided over inquisitions.

And now we have come full circle. How can you deny the ability to interpret Scripture to the Episcopacy of the Catholic, while claiming it for yourself? How can you rely on pastors, preachers, Reformers, Protestant authors and lecturers while mocking Catholics for relying on their versions of the same thing?

I think it very unfortunate that too many Protestants and Catholics allow our beliefs in the Revealed Word to divide us and be a source of contention. We all who call ourselves Christians are called to love one another. Peace be to you.

47 posted on 04/09/2012 7:43:07 PM PDT by Natural Law (If you love the Catholic Church raise your hands, if not raise your standards.)
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To: MarkBsnr

>> “Jesus chided the Jews for preferring their interpretation of Scripture over Him.” <<

.
You might get away with that kind of deception with someone that has never read Matthew, but any Bible reader can see that Christ completely denounced all “traditions” in favor of the plain word of God.

Every ‘tradition’ of the catholic ‘church’ is an extension of the lies of Satan.


48 posted on 04/09/2012 9:03:54 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: Natural Law; BipolarBob

>> “Jesus spoke to a largely unlearned group. He spoke simply. He spoke in parables...” <<

.
Actually, Jesus was speaking to the very most learned scholars on Earth when he was speaking in parables: The Pharisees and Saducees. He spoke in parables specifically because “it is not given for them to understand.”

IOW, he was hiding his truth from them deliberately, because the Father had called for them to be spiritually blinded until the time of fullness of the gentiles. (see Romans 10 and 11)


49 posted on 04/09/2012 9:10:26 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (No Federal Sales Tax - No Way!)
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To: editor-surveyor

-—’His’ doctrines are from scripture, except for the junk that he retained from the Roman ‘church.’-—

But Luther was a fallible man, so his authority to interpret Scripture is the same as mine or yours.

So now we’re down to your assertion that the Bible alone is the sole rule of faith, for Christians.

First question: Which Bible?

Second question: Where in the Bible does the Bible tell us that the Protestant Bible is the sole rule of faith?


50 posted on 04/10/2012 4:58:28 AM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas (Viva Christo Rey!)
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