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Posted on 02/20/2012 3:19:02 PM PST by WKB
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — The nation's largest protestant denomination will definitely remain "Baptist," but leaders are thinking about whether it will be "Southern" for much longer.
(Excerpt) Read more at home.myhughesnet.com ...
The process that they are using to bring it to the delegates of the Southern Baptist Convention convention (for lack of a better phrase) is quite normal.
The Southern Baptist Convention is managed from the church up, not from the top down. I doubt that this proposal will go anywhere as the value of the brand Southern Baptist Convention is extremely high with world wide recognition. Various expectations are set with the brand such as help during disasters, large amounts of missionary activity and Biblical teaching. It’s not going to go anywhere.
“The Southern Baptist Convention is not Christian.”
You funny, meester....
His congregation was full of Calvinists. As Al Mohler has pointed out, the rise of Calvinism was the logical outcome of the battle Adrian Rogers (and others) waged for the Bible.
When I was challenged with the Doctrines of Grace by a friend I resisted. I was around thirty-five at the time and firmly believed what I had been taught by my parents, my pastor and my bible professors at Union. I engaged the debate purely as a thought exercise. But as I argued and debated my friend, I began to have doubts and decided I needed to study the matter in a serious way for myself. I had no intention of becoming a Calvinist. What I was really doing was studying so I could win the argument. I understood the profound implications of Calvinism so I was very reluctant. But I knew that the Apostle Paul said we all see through a glass darkly. I knew I could be wrong, so my continual prayer was for God to show me the truth from His Word. I decided that I would stand on the Scriptures, regardless.
Many of my fellow Bellevue deacons, choir members, and Sunday School teachers were Calvinists, too. There were even some on staff. Once I was convinced of the Doctrines of Grace I and admitted it to a friend, I was shocked to discover how many were sitting in the Bellevue pews with me. Everywhere I went I met another Calvinist. I had no idea Calvinists were teaching across the street at Mid-America.
Interestly enough, a few months before he died, Adrian Rogers told a friend of mine he was a four and a half point Calvinist. Though I didn’t hear the conversation, I am sure he struggled with the idea of particular redemption (limited atonement). (W.A. Criswell was also a four-pointer, as was J. Vernon McGee I believe). If you go back and listen to his preaching, Dr. Rogers clearly preached election, but he did not talk about it in quite the same way as most Calvinist pastors do. When I was initially studying the Doctrines of Grace I realized I already believed much of it based on what I had been taught by Adrian Rogers.
Many do not know that the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention were Calvinists. I did know it because I had taken Baptist history in college. There was a drift that coincided with the rise of dispensationalism and other factors.
When I first told my parents I was a Calvinist they were upset. My father had been a deacon for more than forty years and both of my grandfathers were as well. My great-grandfather was a Baptist pastor. It took years of working on them, but thanks to God’s grace, today both of my elderly parents are Calvinists, too.
“Many do not know that the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention were Calvinists. I did know it because I had taken Baptist history in college.”
Indeed. The 1689 London Confession of Baptist Faith is almost word for word the same as the Presbyterian Westminster Confession of Faith(1643-1646) with the exceptions of views on Baptism, the sacraments and church government.
A couple more things I forgot to say, one of the causes of the rise of Calvinism in the SBC was the installment of a Calvinist, Al Mohler, at the helm of Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville. That happened because of the Conservative resurgence lead in part by Adrian Rogers. It’s my understanding that Dr. Mohler would not have been chosen if not for Adrian Rogers direct involvment. Today Southern has many Calvinists teaching and they turn out scores of Calvinists each year.
But Southern isn’t the only seminary turning out Calvinists. Two of the strongest Calvinist preachers in the entire SBC graduated from Mid-America Seminary—Jeff Noblit and Roy Hargrave. God used men like Adrian Rogers and Gray Allison to raise up a new generation of Baptists who hold to the historic baptist theology of men like John Bunyan, John Gill, William Carey (considered the “Founder of Modern Missions”), Charles Spurgeon (the “Prince of Preachers”) and the founders of the Southern Baptist Convention.
The week Adrian Rogers died, WCRV interviewed John MacArthur, a Calvinist, and his tribute to Adrian Rogers was quite moving.
I know a local Presbyterian pastor who was a friend of Adrian Rogers. He still speaks lovingly and often of Adrian Rogers. I once met Dr. D. James Kennedy, a staunch Presbyterian Calvinist to be sure. He got excited when he learned Adrian Rogers was my pastor and he raved about his love for him.
My point is that Dr. Rogers was not the enemy of Calvinism that some seem to believe. I am not the only Calvinist who loved Adrian Rogers.
The sermon linked below from 2002 was the one that finally broke through my father’s old Baptist heart on the matter of Calvinism.
Election - Pure and Simple (Jeff Noblit from Muscle Shoals)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx4BBgqokeI
Here is another interesting tid bit: I came across a book which contained memoirs and diary entries of a man who was very influential in a rural parish in So. Louisiana. These writing were from around 1870. Apparently, he at some point came under the teachings and influence of Alexander Campbell(Cambellite Church of Christ) whom he mentioned by name. It caused him to repudiate his Baptist associations and upbringing. He rejected the Baptist view of election which he spoke of as monolithic view of the Baptists of that day. Unfortunately, he fell sink line and hook for the Pelagian redux and spent a lot of time discussing mans free agency and self determination.
That is indeed interesting. I’m under the impression that in those years many were swayed by the Cambellites because of eschatology, though I don’t know enough about that movement to be confident that’s correct.
I do know that my own 19th century Southern Baptist ancestors were Calvinists.
The SBC exists for one thing-money.
There is nothing Christian about it.
Might as well be, they aren’t concerned about Christian truth, only money.
Meaning?
Local churches are to be independent.
A 'Convention' isn't Biblical.
It exists for one purpose-money.
Local Churches are to be independent, not dependent on a central authority.
Nothing Christian about a 'covention', a central authority over local churches.
It exists for money.
In the case of the SBC, you have a central authority, controlling local churches.
That is not Christian, since the local church is suppose to be independent.
Anyone who knows me knows that I am opposed to Calvinism.
I’m sorry but that is still your opinion. Do you have scripture to back it up?
How about Saint God Baptist Convention. I’m S.B. so I can suggest it. I think I saw it in a movie.
“Nothing Christian about a ‘convention’.
Local churches are to be independent.”
You are the most ignorant person I’ve ever seen WRT the Southern Baptist Church.
Each and every church is autonomous, owning their church on the church’s land. They own the parsonage, as well as everything else concerning the independent church.
The Pastor or Preacher don’t run the church...the deacons and the congregation do.
I would like to call you stupid, but I think I feel more sorry for your ignorance.
“Nothing Christian about a ‘covention’, a central authority over local churches. “
One more time...the SBC is in no way a central authority.
Each church is autonomous.
Where in the world did you get the idea that they weren’t?
You obviously have not done any research.
There’s no scripture involved.
That one is wrong WRT Southern Baptists. Each church is autonomous, and governs themselves.
How many other denominations can say the same thing?
“I just got back on FR.”
For someone who “just got back on FR” you surely were active in the forum before this post.
I’m not wrong nor ignorant. What I know is what you wrote.
It didn’t sound friendly at all.
Anymore questions?
Each church is linked to the convention and dependent on it for support.
It is you who is blowing smoke.
The Sick Southern Baptist System
13 Reasons to Get Out and Stay Out of the Southern Baptist Convention
http://www.biblebaptistpublications.org/southernbaptists.html
In the book of Acts, there are various local churches established, but there are no denominations or associations. In his epistles, Paul addresses local assemblies, but no denominations or associations are mentioned. In Revelation 1:4, we read these words: “John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne.” We do not read anything about denominations, conventions, or associations. Jesus then goes on to address letters to each of the seven churches independently in chapters two and three (Rev. 1:4, 11; 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14). The Bible simply does not support denominationalism. New Testament churches are independent, autonomous, assemblies of Christians, and nothing more. I realize that Southern Baptist churches are not usually as denominationally oriented as, say, the United Methodists or the Roman Catholics, but they are still part of a denomination (see their web site), so they are still unscriptural. Are the Southern Baptists in a CULT? No, of course not, but they are in a sick and unscriptural system.
http://www.biblebaptistpublications.org/southernbaptists.html
WHY I AM NOT SOUTHERN BAPTIST
CONCLUSION
Friends in Christ, beware of the Southern Baptist Convention. In spite of the conservative renaissance and the many commendable steps that have been taken at the national level to distance the convention from modernism, it remains a deeply compromised, New Evangelical hodgepodge of truth and error. Though there are godly Southern Baptists and some good and Scriptural things in many Southern Baptist congregations, this good is leavened with Billy Graham ecumenism, Jimmy Carter modernism (Carter still teaches Sunday School in a Southern Baptist-associated congregation even though he has distanced himself from the SBC), rock & roll worldliness, contemporary worship charismaticism, Rick Warren pragmaticism, and Masonic Lodge paganism.
“Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?” (1 Cor. 5:6).
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/whynotsbc.html
“...the SBC is in no way a central authority. Each church is autonomous.”
Not autonomous if compared with a truly independent Baptist church. We were members of an SBC church for a few years. A big chunk of the offering went to the Convention and we never really knew how it was used there. Missions efforts were via Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong. VBS programs were all standardized, like going to any McDonalds to get an identical hamburger.
An independent Baptist church IS autonomous. I grew up in one. Finances were all internal. We actually MET the missionaries we supported and hosted them in our homes. We chose Sunday School and VBS materials to best suit the attendees.
An SBC church is semi-autonomous (if that’s a word).
...either way I suggest you work on it...I'm only thinking of you, you know—I'm that sensitive and lovable;)
...either way I suggest you work on it...I'm only thinking of you, you know—I'm that sensitive and lovable;)
...either way I suggest you work on it...I'm only thinking of you, you know—I'm that sensitive and lovable;)
...either way I suggest you work on it...I'm only thinking of you, you know—I'm that sensitive and lovable;)
...either way I suggest you work on it...I'm only thinking of you, you know—I'm that sensitive and lovable;)
I AM a SBC minister...if you would like to FREEPMAIL me to confirm this...go right ahead. I work out of a 17K member church.
There is absolutely NOTHING true in what you have said. Churches do not HAVE to use the materials that the SBC supplies. I can prove that to you. I would try to prove it to you but something tells me you are a bitter independent/fundementalist baptist who wouldn't listen to no amount of evidence I put forth.
But here it goes anyway: In my ministry...I help rebuild churches that have seen better days...and I do not use "Lifeway" materials. I use stuff that I wrote with the blessings of my pastor.
MANY MANY MANY churches are that way. Unfortunately there are A LOT of churches who DO use lifeway materials and I myself don't like it. It squashes the ingenuity. HOWEVER...it by NO MEANS forced upon churches by the SBC. TO say so comes from a position of EXTREME ignorance or outright deceit.
So which one is it? Are you just ignorant...or are you intentionally lying? Again...while I do not LIKE the proliferation of Lifeway materials...Churches use them because they have become LAZY...not because they are forced to do so.
And EVERY SBC church is autonomous. The PROOF of this is they call the PASTORS they want to call. They call the STAFF they want to call. They build the BUILDINGS they want to build...and when they go under because of debt...THEY go under.
And I think YOU know they are AUTONOMOUS. So again...which is it? Are you ignorant? Or malicious?
So say millions of people are not Christians is a grevious error. And to say they are no Christian because they get together in association? WOW...I wasn't aware Christ or the Apostles listed THAT among the damnable heresies.
So...is that a NEW revelation?
I AM a SBC minister...if you would like to FREEPMAIL me to confirm this...go right ahead. I work out of a 17K member church.
There is absolutely NOTHING true in what you have said. Churches do not HAVE to use the materials that the SBC supplies. I can prove that to you. I would try to prove it to you but something tells me you are a bitter independent/fundementalist baptist who wouldn't listen to no amount of evidence I put forth.
But here it goes anyway: In my ministry...I help rebuild churches that have seen better days...and I do not use "Lifeway" materials. I use stuff that I wrote with the blessings of my pastor.
MANY MANY MANY churches are that way. Unfortunately there are A LOT of churches who DO use lifeway materials and I myself don't like it. It squashes the ingenuity. HOWEVER...it by NO MEANS forced upon churches by the SBC. TO say so comes from a position of EXTREME ignorance or outright deceit.
So which one is it? Are you just ignorant...or are you intentionally lying? Again...while I do not LIKE the proliferation of Lifeway materials...Churches use them because they have become LAZY...not because they are forced to do so.
And EVERY SBC church is autonomous. The PROOF of this is they call the PASTORS they want to call. They call the STAFF they want to call. They build the BUILDINGS they want to build...and when they go under because of debt...THEY go under.
And I think YOU know they are AUTONOMOUS. So again...which is it? Are you ignorant? Or malicious?
So say millions of people are not Christians is a grevious error. And to say they are no Christian because they get together in association? WOW...I wasn't aware Christ or the Apostles listed THAT among the damnable heresies.
So...is that a NEW revelation?
WHY I AM NOT SOUTHERN BAPTIST
1) THE DENOMINATIONAL SYSTEM ITSELF IS UNSCRIPTURAL.
The Lord’s apostles planted autonomous congregations and they did not build denominational structures yoking the congregations together. The New Testament gives detailed instructions for the government and discipline of the assembly, but there are no instructions for the establishment of intra- or extra-church institutions. Denominational structures are man-made entities that have no biblical authority.
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/whynotsbc.html
I didn’t say those in the SBC weren’t Christian, I said the SBC wasn’t Christian.
I didn’t say those in the SBC weren’t Christian, I said the SBC wasn’t Christian.
Name these supplies.
Also...you said: "Local Churches are to be independent, not dependent on a central authority.
Name HOW my local church is dependent upon the central authority of the SBC. NAME SPECIFICS. What can we NOT do...or do...contrary to the will of the SBC? BE SPECIFIC. How do we have to do the bidding of the SBC?
No. You are 100% wrong. That would be the Catholic church, maybe the Episcopalians, I don’t know, Jehovah’s Witnesss (well, they’re not Christian anyway), and a slew of others.
EVERY, EVERY SINGLE Southern Baptist church, EVERY 0NE is totally independent of any outside authority. The Southern Baptist Convention is composed of churches that voluntarily associate with it, as are all the State conventions, and county associations. They do this in order to more efficiently witness, to support misssionary work, to produce Sunday School lessons, etc.
But each is independent, can withdraw at any time and join another Baptist convention, or none at all. If they stay, they are NOT bound by whatever the convention or its officers say. The SBC speaks only for itself, and not for any of its members.
But while they have no power, or authority over its churches, they may, or may not have some influence over some, only some, of them.
Please explain.
Whoops, another error. The churches don’t depend on the convention for support. They support the convention.
I don’t know what kind of Baptists you are thinking about, but it’s not the Southern Baptists
“They have to use the materials the SBC provides.”?
Are you totally out of your mind?
NO, they don’t. They often do, but they don’t have to use anything they don’t want to. They often do, for the same reason men don’t lower the toilet seat. It’s more convenient?
Is that unChristian?
As another poster has pointed out...and I wanted to emphasize...this is ANOTHER falsehood. As I was going through your posts I knew there was another one I wanted to point out and this was it.
This is very much incorrect. The ONLY churches that MIGHT depend on the SBC for support are NEW church plants...and this is through a cooperation of other churches and is very biblical and only lasts for a period of 3 years MAX. However...NO established local church depends on the SBC for support.
OK...you made the claim...support it with evidence...or apologize (yet ANOTHER false claim).
I gotta ask.
You have been making quite a number of erroneous declarations about the SBC? Fair enough. All of us are ignorant about something.
Here’s something I’m ignorant about, so please enlighten me. What religious group do you identify with. Please don’t say “Christian”. What I want to know is the specific, legal name of the church, synagogue, temple, or mosque that you attend, if any.
And if you don’t mind, how would you describe your theology. And by that I mean a specific organized way of interpretaion of the Bible developed by a specific theolgian.
Thank you.
That being said...BY NO MEANS is ANY church FORCED to USE Lifeway. As a minister who goes to MANY churches...I have been in dozens of churches who do NOT use Lifeway. MY CHURCH (which is a MEGACHURCH and one of the largest in the SBC) does NOT use Lifeway. WE have DOZENS of Sunday School classes and they are all using different materials. Some are made my the teachers themselves...hand written in house.
I interim pastored at a church several years ago that WAS using Lifeway and we stopped and started using my stuff. Not one sermon or lesson that was taught in that Church came from the SBC. I can name numerous churches like this. This person either 1) Is a liar with a grudge or 2) Is an ignoramus.
or 3) an adrenaline junkie who gets off on stirring people up. :)
I agree with everything that you said. WHAT is his problem?
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