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WHY THE MAGISTERIUM MAKES SENSE TO ME
Ignitum Today ^ | February 2, 2012 | Colin Gormley

Posted on 02/03/2012 6:31:03 AM PST by NYer

I am married to a Korean national. I mention this not just because it is cool (and it is cool) but I’ve learned quite a few things about my Faith from being close to someone of a very different culture.

Because of my wife’s nationality I know quite a few Koreans by association. They come from education backgrounds that make your humble scribe feel quite inferior, or at least I’d feel that way if they weren’t so humble about it. And one of the core components of this education is learning the English language.

To me they do indeed speak English well. Some can even speak without the hint of a Korean accent. I know firsthand how difficult this is given my own extremely difficult time learning Korean.

(What does this have to do with the Magisterium? Please bear with me).

However despite their best efforts I have come to notice that no matter how fluent they were certain ways they would speak seemed…well..awkward. For example, almost to a man, when one of my wife’s friends say something like they were sick yesterday they would say “My condition was not good.” This was true regardless of how well any of them spoke English. I pointed it out to my wife and she noted that it was more or less a direct translation of the Korean expression for having been sick in the past. Despite the quality of their English, they were still speaking Korean using English words.

Another time my wife was telling me about her college days and describing a particular student and his relationship to the students in her freshman group. There literally is no English word for the particular position that this person held. It is something of a cross between a mentor, a Resident Assistant, and a full blown teacher. The attempt of my wife to explain this concept actually took a bit of time, and my above description is my best attempt to explain this position.

What I’m trying to say is that one’s culture has a powerful effect on one’s exposure to concepts as well as how one is going to express themselves. The ability to communicate with one another is heavily dependent on the concepts being discussed and the modes of expression that the communicants share. The greater the disparity in either, the more communication it takes to attempt to bridge the gap.

At one point this started me thinking about the Bible. The books are written a long time ago by a culture with wildly different concepts and modes of expression than we have in modern English. And the New Testament was a translation of one culture into another, from the Jewish culture and language (Aramaic) to the Common Greek. Not only are these cultures different from ours (the Jewish and the Greek) but both cultures have grown and developed over time.

Just to give one example is the notion of “brother” in Jewish culture. The original Aramaic that Jesus and His followers spoke had no concept of “cousin.” To describe the relationship of one cousin to another they would say something like, “He is the son of my father’s brother.” Given how wordy this is they would simplify it to “he is my brother.”

Now someone might object to this by pointing out that the Common Greek had a word for cousin and if the authors wanted to say “cousin” they would have. But to me this doesn’t fly for two reasons. First, that knowledge of a language does not bestow the modes of expression the language uses. As in my first example, the Korean expressing that they were sick still use the Korean wording of the concept rendered into English. Second, given that Jesus and his people used Aramaic to communicate, it is actually more accurate to have a word for word translation, complete with ambiguity, rather than to impose a meaning on the words by trying to translate the wording into something more friendly to the new language.

These things led me to realize that if the Body of Christ has to go at Faith with a Bible Alone approach we are doomed. The time, culture and language separations are a huge obstacle to getting at the actual meaning of the texts, with all the nuance and subtlety that comes with theological understanding and the development of those concepts. This is readily apparent with our Protestant brethren, who continue to split into numerous sects and sects within sects.

The Bible is a product of the times and cultures that produced it. Despite the fact that it is the inerrant Word of God it still uses human culture and language to communicate to us. And because of the limits of both human language and cultural concepts, the existence of the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition simply make sense.

Our Lord provided us with an authoritative body that can express the Truths of Revelation over time and cultures without error. A body that has the authority to interpret the Sacred Texts and present them to all cultures and times. A body that lives and breathes with the cultures in time but stands above them. That such a body, the Magisterim, exists is not only to my mind beneficial, but necessary for preserving the Word of God and revealing the Word to us using the concepts and modes of communication we use.

My exposure to a foreign culture as different as the Korean one only illustrates the need for the Sacred Tradition, and the need for the authority of the Magisterium to guarantee the transmission of that Tradition. There is more to the Truth of the Word than our cultures and languages can transmit. The Magisterium exists to teach us in the ways we communicate today, and will exist to teach the cultures of the future. Through the Magisterium we overcome the Tower of Babel now and in the future.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Culture; Theology
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To: PetroniusMaximus

-—The teaching that the Bible contains in it all that a person need to find salvation and live a life pleasing to God is EXACTLY what St. Paul taught the early Christians.-—

Was St. Paul speaking of the entire NT, including the books that had not yet been written?

—You are free to choose not to believe St. Paul if you wish.——

More fundamentally, How do you know that these are the words of St. Paul, if the Church that wrote, preserved and canonized these Scriptures is fallible?

Am i free to reject your fallible interpretation of St. Paul?

16All Scripture is God-breathed...

Yes, but this begs the question of What constitutes Scripture? Catholics offer a coherent answer: The Church that Christ founded tells us.

...and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

“Is useful for” does not mean “all that is necessary for.”

17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Who is “the man of God”? Some believe that this is a reference to priests. Is it possible to be thoroughly equipped, but not sufficiently equipped to do a good work? For example, a soldier may be thoroughly equipped for combat, yet still lack the will to fight.

Are good works alone sufficient for salvation?

Because this passage does not refer to faith, which is also necessary for salvation, this passage does not prove that scripture alone can supply us with everything that is necessary for salvation.

Finally, this passage again begs the question, What constitutes Scripture? The answer to this question requires an extra-biblical authority.

http://www.catholicsource.net/articles/ssmadrid.htm

OTOH, I am puzzled by the fact that Protestants ignore the following words of Jesus: “If he refuses to listen to the Church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector.”

Additionally, the Church is referred to in Scripture as the, “the pillar and foundation of truth.”


21 posted on 02/03/2012 8:37:54 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: Dutchboy88

-—The word in the Scriptures is “assembly” and it is used to describe even the mob gathered in Ephesus.-—

Then “the assembly” must be “the pillar and foundation of truth.” That assembly would be worth finding.

Perhaps it is the Church that Christ founded, the one which we ignore at our peril. “If he fails to listen to the Church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector.” For Christ’s command to be meaningful, His Church must be visible and identifiable.

This is where we turn to history.

Regarding the papacy, what key did Jesus give to Peter?


22 posted on 02/03/2012 8:52:45 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: cloudmountain
>> The early Christians took after their Jewish ancestors and kept records, wrote it all down, appreciated the efficacy of the written word.<<

I suppose then that you could show us where the apostles taught the bodily assumption of Mary?

23 posted on 02/03/2012 8:55:47 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
>>Some believe that this is a reference to priests.<<

Who does Peter say are priests?

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

24 posted on 02/03/2012 9:09:14 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: NYer
WHY THE MAGISTERIUM MAKES SENSE TO ME
Revelation, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium
Vatican must ensure Caritas charity groups are “completely in accord” with Magisterium
What Is the Magisterium?

Allen interview of Cardinal George supports report of ‘parallel magisterium’ worries
The Magisterium: A Precious Gift (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Charism of Infallibility: The Magisterium
Anti-Popes and Dangers of a Parallel Magisterium (Church under attack) [Catholic Caucus]
Pontiff Calls for Complete Fidelity to Magisterium
Modernism and the Magisterium
Catholic Word of the Day: EXTRAORDINARY MAGISTERIUM , 10-23-09
“Exemplary loyalty and devotion to the Holy Father and the magisterium”
Nostra Aetate [Catholic Magisterium Rejecting Collective Guilt of Jews]
The Magisterium: A precious gift

25 posted on 02/03/2012 9:27:36 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; St_Thomas_Aquinas
the Bible contains in it all that a person need to find salvation and live a life pleasing to God

I don't believe this is in scripture. Profitable/useful yes, but not entirely sufficient.

26 posted on 02/03/2012 9:48:41 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper; Gamecock; RnMomof7; HarleyD; fish hawk; ...
"Regarding the papacy, what key did Jesus give to Peter?"

And, from this the org builds a papacy? No wonder they have wandered from the pure Gospel of grace. We encourage you to abandon the chains of Rome and come into the light of Christ, alone...if you are permitted.

27 posted on 02/03/2012 9:50:46 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: NYer

“At the time the Canon was established, we were one church. “

my point exactly. Still is one church.


28 posted on 02/03/2012 10:04:31 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Proud RINOmney Denialist since 2007!)
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To: sayuncledave

“There was ONE Catholic Church in 420. The Great Schism came later.”

Always has been one church. Still is.


29 posted on 02/03/2012 10:05:49 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Proud RINOmney Denialist since 2007!)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
OTOH, I am puzzled by the fact that Protestants ignore the following words of Jesus: “If he refuses to listen to the Church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector.”

Additionally, the Church is referred to in Scripture as the, “the pillar and foundation of truth.”

Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

It is not Church...It is church...

And what is church??? The church is a called out assembly...That's puts a whole different light on the subject, doesn't it...

The churches in the bible are called out assemblies...Local assemblies...The church is not some organization in Rome...

So as we can see, if you have a problem with someone, you take it to the local assembly of Christians where this person is a member...

The local assembly is the pillar and ground of the truth...That's what the bible says...You can't pervert the scripture into claiming that your religion is Rome is the pillar and ground of the truth...Won't work...

30 posted on 02/03/2012 10:51:16 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: sayuncledave
“2/3 of the “Bible” was in place before the founding of the Church.” You are of course referring to the Septuagint.

No...The Hebrew Bible...Written in Hebrew...

31 posted on 02/03/2012 10:53:12 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
More fundamentally, How do you know that these are the words of St. Paul, if the Church that wrote, preserved and canonized these Scriptures is fallible?

That is really, really easy...Your Church did not exist when the disciples wrote the scriptures...

Your religion did not preserve anything...It almost did not even preserve a major portion of your Catholic manuscripts since they were dug out of a trash can just prior to being destroyed...

The fact that your religion created its own canon proves that it is fallible...

32 posted on 02/03/2012 10:58:00 AM PST by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; Dutchboy88; smvoice; metmom
Then “the assembly” must be “the pillar and foundation of truth.” That assembly would be worth finding.

And what truth is that pillar and foundation to up hold?

Note scripture does not say it is to BUILD a foundation or a truth ..it says to uphold an existing truth and be a foundation for it..

So what truth is the church to uphold?

33 posted on 02/03/2012 11:12:32 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: NYer

Searching for: CHURCH

MATTHEW 16:18 I will build my CHURCH; and the gates of
MATTHEW 18:17 tell it unto the CHURCH: but if he neglect
MATTHEW 18:17 neglect to hear the CHURCH, let him be unto
ACTS 2:47 Lord added to the CHURCH daily such as should
ACTS 5:11 came upon all the CHURCH, and upon as many
ACTS 7:38 that was in the CHURCH in the wilderness with
ACTS 8:1 great persecution against the CHURCH which was at Jerusalem;
ACTS 8:3 made havock of the CHURCH, entering into every house,
ACTS 11:22 the ears of the CHURCH which was in Jerusalem:
ACTS 11:26 assembled themselves with the CHURCH, and taught much people.
ACTS 12:1 forth his hands to vex certain of the CHURCH.
ACTS 12:5 without ceasing of the CHURCH unto God for him.
ACTS 13:1 there were in the CHURCH that was at Antioch
ACTS 14:23 them elders in every CHURCH, and had prayed with
ACTS 14:27 and had gathered the CHURCH together, they rehearsed all
ACTS 15:3 their way by the CHURCH, they passed through Phenice
ACTS 15:4 were received of the CHURCH, and of the apostles
ACTS 15:22 elders with the whole CHURCH, to send chosen men
ACTS 18:22 up, and saluted the CHURCH, he went down to
ACTS 20:17 to Ephesus, and called the elders of the CHURCH.
ACTS 20:28 overseers, to feed the CHURCH of God, which he
ROMANS 16:1 a servant of the CHURCH which is at Cenchrea:
ROMANS 16:5 Likewise greet the CHURCH that is in their house.
ROMANS 16:23 and of the whole CHURCH, saluteth you. Erastus the
1 CORINTHIANS 1:2 Unto the CHURCH of God which is at Corinth,
1 CORINTHIANS 4:17 Christ, as I teach every where in every CHURCH.
1 CORINTHIANS 6:4 to judge who are least esteemed in the CHURCH.
1 CORINTHIANS 10:32 to the Gentiles, nor to the CHURCH of God:
1 CORINTHIANS 11:18 come together in the CHURCH, I hear that there
1 CORINTHIANS 11:22 or despise ye the CHURCH of God, and shame
1 CORINTHIANS 12:28 set some in the CHURCH, first apostles, secondarily prophets,
1 CORINTHIANS 14:4 edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the CHURCH.
1 CORINTHIANS 14:5 except he interpret, that the CHURCH may receive edifying.
1 CORINTHIANS 14:12 ye may excel to the edifying of the CHURCH.
1 CORINTHIANS 14:19 Yet in the CHURCH I had rather speak five
1 CORINTHIANS 14:23 If therefore the whole CHURCH be come together into
1 CORINTHIANS 14:28 keep silence in the CHURCH; and let him speak
1 CORINTHIANS 14:35 a shame for women to speak in the CHURCH.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:9 an apostle, because I persecuted the CHURCH of God.
1 CORINTHIANS 16:19 the Lord, with the CHURCH that is in their
2 CORINTHIANS 1:1 our brother, unto the CHURCH of God which is
GALATIANS 1:13 measure I persecuted the CHURCH of God, and wasted
EPHESIANS 1:22 be the head over all things to the CHURCH,
EPHESIANS 3:10 be known by the CHURCH the manifold wisdom of
EPHESIANS 3:21 be glory in the CHURCH by Christ Jesus throughout
EPHESIANS 5:23 the head of the CHURCH: and he is the
EPHESIANS 5:24 Therefore as the CHURCH is subject unto Christ, so
EPHESIANS 5:25 Christ also loved the CHURCH, and gave himself for
EPHESIANS 5:27 to himself a glorious CHURCH, not having spot, or
EPHESIANS 5:29 and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the CHURCH:
EPHESIANS 5:32 mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the CHURCH.
PHILIPPIANS 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the CHURCH; touching the righteousness which
PHILIPPIANS 4:15 departed from Macedonia, no CHURCH communicated with me as
COLOSSIANS 1:18 of the body, the CHURCH: who is the beginning,
COLOSSIANS 1:24 flesh for his body’s sake, which is the CHURCH:
COLOSSIANS 4:15 and Nymphas, and the CHURCH which is in his
COLOSSIANS 4:16 read also in the CHURCH of the Laodiceans; and
1 THESSALONIANS 1:1 and Timotheus, unto the CHURCH of the Thessalonians which
2 THESSALONIANS 1:1 and Timotheus, unto the CHURCH of the Thessalonians in
1 TIMOTHY 3:5 shall he take care of the CHURCH of God?)
1 TIMOTHY 3:15 God, which is the CHURCH of the living God,
1 TIMOTHY 5:16 and let not the CHURCH be charged; that it
PHILEMON 1:2 our fellowsoldier, and to the CHURCH in thy house:
HEBREWS 2:12 the midst of the CHURCH will I sing praise
HEBREWS 12:23 the general assembly and CHURCH of the firstborn, which
JAMES 5:14 the elders of the CHURCH; and let them pray
1 PETER 5:13 The CHURCH that is at Babylon, elected together with
3 JOHN 1:6 thy charity before the CHURCH: whom if thou bring
3 JOHN 1:9 I wrote unto the CHURCH: but Diotrephes, who loveth
3 JOHN 1:10 that would, and casteth them out of the CHURCH.
REVELATION 2:1 the angel of the CHURCH of Ephesus write; These
REVELATION 2:8 the angel of the CHURCH in Smyrna write; These
REVELATION 2:12 the angel of the CHURCH in Pergamos write; These
REVELATION 2:18 the angel of the CHURCH in Thyatira write; These
REVELATION 3:1 the angel of the CHURCH in Sardis write; These
REVELATION 3:7 the angel of the CHURCH in Philadelphia write; These
REVELATION 3:14 the angel of the CHURCH of the Laodiceans write;
—END—


34 posted on 02/03/2012 11:12:38 AM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Dutchboy88

I have abandoned the chains of Protestantism and have come into the light of Christ as a Catholic.

I receive His sacraments, His love, His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity at each Mass.

I have received the fullness of faith in Jesus Christ.

Come home, we’ll leave the light on for you.


35 posted on 02/03/2012 11:14:23 AM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (If Obama were twice as smart as he is, he would be a wit)
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To: NYer

This article makes me think of the old testament story of Israel wanting a King

1Sa 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

1Sa 8:8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

1Sa 8:9 Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

1Sa 8:10 ¶ And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.

1Sa 8:11 And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint [them] for himself, for his chariots, and [to be] his horsemen; and [some] shall run before his chariots.

1Sa 8:12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and [will set them] to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.

1Sa 8:13 And he will take your daughters [to be] confectionaries, and [to be] cooks, and [to be] bakers.

1Sa 8:14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, [even] the best [of them], and give [them] to his servants.

1Sa 8:15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.

1Sa 8:16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put [them] to his work.

1Sa 8:17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.

1Sa 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

1Sa 8:19 ¶ Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;

1Sa 8:20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.

1Sa 8:21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD.

1Sa 8:22 And the LORD said to Samuel, Hearken unto their voice, and make them a king. .......

Men are not satisfied by God..they want a visible representative or representatives to lead them ...


36 posted on 02/03/2012 11:17:18 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

Well, you certainly have received something. In a few years you will find out whether that was different than the boys in bathrobes claimed. You may turn the light off...we’re not swimming that foul Tiber. We are safe in the arms of Christ, alone.


37 posted on 02/03/2012 11:19:17 AM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: RnMomof7
WHY THE MAGISTERIUM MAKES SENSE TO ME

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

30 And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

All believers have the Holy Spirit and are just as capable as each other in understanding spiritual truth because it's SPIRITUALLY discerned.

It's not a matter of intellectual prowess and there's no Scriptural support for a select, elite bunch of people to make decisions about spiritual matters for everyone else.

As a matter of fact, we all answer to GOD individually.

Romans 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

38 posted on 02/03/2012 11:33:27 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...

Just wow........

What an indictment of Catholicism.

I see that our analysis of the RCC wanting to be completely in control was not off at all.

NOTHING is above the authority of Scripture. The Catholic church’s self-proclaimed final authority is meaningless because one cannot proclaim themselves as a final authority, it must be granted from the outside to be valid.

Only authority can confer authority and I don’t see God giving His up to Catholicism.


39 posted on 02/03/2012 11:39:23 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
The teaching that the Bible contains in it all that a person need to find salvation and live a life pleasing to God is EXACTLY what St. Paul taught the early Christians.

John also states it. Matter of fact, all that's needed is the gospel of John.

John 20:30-31 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

40 posted on 02/03/2012 11:46:15 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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